All this dwarf talk...

[nootka]

I would also add that based on these photos I don't see dwarfy characteristics. The only one I might say would be the large head (which the gelding in my avatar also shows), but a large head does not a dwarf make.

All the other conformational shortcomings are just those, and those would be the reasons I would have chosen to keep her a pet, as well (just too many of them).

Thanks for sharing!

Liz M.

 

[Jill]

Just to answer the question and not critique her, NO, I do not see anything on her that makes me think of dwarfism, unless she's got an undershot jaw? In the lightened pictures, is that her lower teeth showing?

 

[iluvwalkers]

[SIZE=14pt]In the first picture she is doing something silly with her lips, normally her teeth do not show as you can see in the second picture. we have her teeth done once a year. she is 12 and when she was 4 it went slightly off but it stays well with floating them... [/SIZE]

 

[sedeh]

I don't see anything dwarfy about her. Just a very sweet girl!

 

[runamuk]

I don't see chubby...I see much loved :bgrin ....as I wolf down a bowl of coffee with dark chocolate chunk ice cream here

Runamuck is that what you meant by "showing the love"? LOL...I will have to remember that the next time my pants are feeling a little tight...I'm just showing the love... :bgrin ...

:bgrin :bgrin :bgrin

yep........she is a doll .....I have my no legs, calf kneed, sickle hocked, weiner gelding with a giraffe neck :new_shocked: :new_shocked: who is also a love but definately NOT a good conformation example.

 

[lilfolks]

For what my opinion is worth, I don't see a dwarf in her at all. No horse is 100% perfect.

Joyce L

 

[Sunshine Acres]

I think with all of this dwarf talk, you could take a champion halter horse in his winter woolies, in a home picture, pulled right out of the pasture, not tell his name just ask if he has any dwarf characteristics and I would be willing to bet someone would say "YES I see dwarf bla bla in him". I know everyone thinks everyone else is barn blind.

This has got to be one of the most idiotic things I think I have ever read on one of these dwarf topics. This is the reason that people continue to make the choices they do and how they deal with the choices they make, by justifying that thier horse looks just like so and so in thier winter woolies. Hair or not, there are certain characteristics that produce dwarf! You need to learn how to look at a horse before coming on these threads and stating something so stupid!

Pehaps there is a reason that you feel everyone thinks you are barn blind! A true sign of a good breeder is one who willing and openly can see the faults of their own horses. NO horse is perfect, even the champions.

Sandy No&Sad

 

[Margo_C-T]

I surely don't see 'dwarf' per se; I do think that runamuk and nootka have it about right...she is 'being' just what she SHOULD be 'being'--and is CLEARLY well-loved and well-cared for( just look at that SHINE!!WooWee! And, that 'toothy grin'!! Is she a happy horse, or what??!!) <big grin here, too!>

Margo

 

[iluvwalkers]

just look at that SHINE!!WooWee! And, that 'toothy grin'!! Is she a happy horse, or what??!! big grin here, too!

Margo

I am laughing out loud again...too funny...

 

[shelia]

I think with all of this dwarf talk, you could take a champion halter horse in his winter woolies, in a home picture, pulled right out of the pasture, not tell his name just ask if he has any dwarf characteristics and I would be willing to bet someone would say "YES I see dwarf bla bla in him". I know everyone thinks everyone else is barn blind.

This has got to be one of the most idiotic things I think I have ever read on one of these dwarf topics. This is the reason that people continue to make the choices they do and how they deal with the choices they make, by justifying that thier horse looks just like so and so in thier winter woolies. Hair or not, there are certain characteristics that produce dwarf! You need to learn how to look at a horse before coming on these threads and stating something so stupid!

Pehaps there is a reason that you feel everyone thinks you are barn blind! A true sign of a good breeder is one who willing and openly can see the faults of their own horses. NO horse is perfect, even the champions.

Sandy No&Sad

Well Sandy I see that you can see faults in your horses, but I think you are missing the faults in the way you react to people. Maybe you should go back and read about forum etiquette. This is the kind of response that makes a lot of us leave the forum. We are afraid to make comments or ask questions for fear of getting a response like this. That was extremly cruel and uncalled for. (besides I liked her question) We came here to learn, not to be put down.

Shelia

 

[rabbitsfizz]

To paraphrase Dear Marty...

" Queen of putting her foot in it....at your service....Vrrrooommm....."

OK, time out- I think Katieann comment is very valid and I think it is also true.

I also think that Sandy's comment was over blunt (Argh - this from ME????) and uncalled for.

I do think that we could find dwarf characteristics in any Mini alive and I think we need to be very careful that we continue to look.

Hard.

And to criticize our own stock on a regular basis.

I will forgive a lot of things in my broodmares but if I got a dwarf, or a foal with dwarf characteristics she would cease to be a broodmare.

Now how can I come to that informed decision if I do not look, look hard and look again??

It is a terrible thing to say- that you could take a Champion in his/her winter woollies and find dwarf characteristics in him/her but I actually think it is true.

I think you could do the same for a lot of horses in show condition- short necks, big heads and long backs are not confined to the dwarf echelons, after all- we all agree that the biggest fault in out horses is that the heads are too big in comparison to the body.

It will never stop me looking, perfection is something to aim for, it is rarely attained.

 

[Sunshine Acres]

I am sorry if you feel my feelings are blunt and uncalled for, but I find it very offensive that people make these kind of comments about show horses and conformation, when they really don't know the meaning of the word.

There are plenty of people on here who take thier breeding programs and showing seriously. I think it is a great insult to someone who spends thousands of dollars a year when someone who isn't willing to even pay to get a horse gelded comes on and says that thier champions in hair will have dwarf characteristics......Hair is not a dwarf characteristic, and a serious breeder is able to see past a hairy horse, enough to know if the horse has dwarf characteristics, I just think that saying any horse hairy possess dwarf characteristics is a pretty bold statement in is self. And like Katien and Rabbitfizz, I am entitled to my opinion!

 

[Jill]

You know, I really did follow the point Sunshine Acres was trying to make... Some days we can all pick better words than we sometimes do, but I "got" what she was feeling and (zipping up my flame proof suit) agree.

I'm not sure I would EVER hold one of my horses out here for a critique -- in their woolies or show clipped. There's just such a wide range of insight (or not) and motivations too with the jealousy, etc. I'll stick to private evaluations and show ribbons for guidance.

 

[runamuk]

I find it interesting how heated this topic still becomes for some.

I don't breed, I have no vested interest in any show horse, and have nothing to gain or lose.

I am curious.......... What if there had never been any dwarves used and the smallest miniature was 30 inches?

After all it is entirely possible that without the action of a dwarf gene mini's would be not quite so mini.

One of the easiest features to see in a single gene dwarf jersey wooly rabbit, is shortened hind limbs. The other less desirable trait that often accompanies that is cowhocks. So when I was breeding for 4lb and under JW's I needed the dwarf gene but selected for the best hocks. The goal was to keep the size down but maintain a good conformation, easier said than done. I specifically selected larger non dwarf does with good hocks and strong rear ends. But those does often had larger than desirable ears, and rather plain heads. My dwarf bucks had small size, tiny ears, and extreme heads. With careful line/inbreeding and knowing what sort of fire I was playing with, I usually got close to what I was aiming for.

I actually think miniature horses would benefit from everyone being able to recognize those traits both good and bad which may stem from dwarfism. Trying to figure out where strengths and faults come from is a good thing, and then you can try to breed away from the faults and toward the strengths. There is always going to be risk involved in breeding even with all the knowledge in the world.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I am sorry if you feel my feelings are blunt and uncalled for, but I find it very offensive that people make these kind of comments about show horses and conformation, when they really don't know the meaning of the word.

There are plenty of people on here who take their breeding programs and showing seriously. I think it is a great insult to someone who spends thousands of dollars a year when someone who isn't willing to even pay to get a horse gelded comes on and says that their champions in hair will have dwarf characteristics......Hair is not a dwarf characteristic, and a serious breeder is able to see past a hairy horse, enough to know if the horse has dwarf characteristics, I just think that saying any horse hairy possess dwarf characteristics is a pretty bold statement in is self. And like Katien and Rrabbittzz, I am entitled to my opinion!

Sorry I must be missing something...

Where did anyone say all hairy horses had dwarf characteristics??

Or that being hairy was a dwarf characteristic??

Or am I missing the point??

The point I was making- and believe me I take my breeding programme as seriously as anyone, was that it would be virtually impossible to find any horse, Champion or otherwise, woolly coat or otherwise, in which you could not find some dwarf characteristics, this is why we need to be critical of our own stock as well as of others.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

The point I was making- and believe me I take my breeding programme as seriously as anyone, was that it would be virtually impossible to find any horse, Champion or otherwise, woolly coat or otherwise, in which you could not find some dwarf characteristics, this is why we need to be critical of our own stock as well as of others.

Hmm I am not sure that is true I dont see dwarf characteristics in every horse but since you have had a program for many years with no dwarfs would you mind putting up a couple of your non dwarf horses and pointing out there characteristics that you see in them?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Why are what my horses look like relevant??

I have said the complete reverse- that I do not believe there are many or any horses that could not have a few dwarf characteristics seen in them, if you were to look closely enough- that is not to say that they are any more than visually dwarf characteristics- not that they actually are such- maybe I am not making myself clear??

I am not saying all horse have dwarf characteristics , I am saying that dwarf characteristics could be seen, if you want to find them, in most horses- does that seem any clearer??

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Why are what my horses look like relevant??

I

I am not saying all horse have dwarf characteristics , I am saying that dwarf characteristics could be seen, if you want to find them, in most horses- does that seem any clearer??

Well again your horses would seem relevant simply since you have had a basically closed herd for breeding for many years and are proud of the fact (as you should be) that you have not had a dwarf born not many can say that I thought it might be educational to be able to see your horses since you must be doing something right.

and I guess yes what you are saying is clear in a way however I am not understanding why anyone would "want" to see dwarf characteristics in horses that dont have them I realize it can be somewhat subjective sometimes but makes no sense to think someone wants to find them in every horse they see

 

[runamuk]

I actually think I get what Rabbitfizz is saying.

Many horses have short necks, or a long back, or bad legs, or an off bite....all of which are known to be dwarf characteristics, however these same characteristics can be simply poor conformation. I think thats where the 3 characteristic rule tries to draw a line but in my opinion that isn't always an easy line to draw.

Due to the size of a miniature horse it is more likely outsiders will see "dwarf" due to the fact that the term dwarf typically means small stature. Think netherland dwarf rabbits, nigerian dwarf goats, how can the average person understand that it is ok in one species and in another the term is miniature, or toy, or babydoll to essentially describe the same thing very small stature.......

 

[mmmorgans]

I think with all of this dwarf talk, you could take a champion halter horse in his winter woolies, in a home picture, pulled right out of the pasture, not tell his name just ask if he has any dwarf characteristics and I would be willing to bet someone would say "YES I see dwarf bla bla in him". I know everyone thinks everyone else is barn blind. But, come on! if everyones horses but our own are dwarfs, then I guess what we have is a dwarf breed and everyone needs to deal with it. It really cracks me up that every time someone is brave enough to ask, someone says yes. I have seen bent knees, domed heads as adults, big bellies with short legs, necks about a hands width long, bad bites. These are dwarfs. But come on people, every horse that doesn't have perfect conformation is not a dwarf. Not even a minimal dwarf. Minis don't need necks as long as a geraffe or thats what they would be. In my mind, if you can take a picture of your mini without anything around to define it's size and it looks like it's bigger counterparts and not a pony, then you have a mini. I would not put so much worry into something that just has to be delt with and not worried about at every turn. If your horses are healthy and you don't breed they why worry? If you do breed then just be careful what you breed and if you do get a dwarf then don't breed it, don't sell it as breed stock and try a different cross the next time you breed your mare or don't breed her again and don't sell her as a brood mare. I would also tell the stallion owner if was an outside horse you breed to. Not in an angry way. Just inform them what happened. Most people would want to know that.

THANK YOU KATIEAN - I have been thinking the exact same thing and was trying to figure out how to put that into words on this forum. It is so true - any small horse that someone posts a picture of - ends up being a dwarf. Any poor conformation on a horse - ends up having dwarf characteristics. I think those that are breeders realize the seriousness of dwarfism in our breed - but come on folks - lighten up a little - this dwarfism topic gets way out of hand every single time it is brought up. I realize that there are new members out there that want to learn - and I thank them for asking questions - but jeepers this has gone from bad to ridiculous.

There are some people that always post such negative comments - and can see dwarfism in just about every horse that isn't a National champion - well you know what - I wouldn't even consider buying from them as they are way too negative about everything!!!!!!!!!!!!

And - when people post pictures of their horse and ask if it looks like a dwarf - they are not necessarily asking for a full critique - so please stick to the issue and not go off on a tangent.

JMO