AMHA closing its books in 2013

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Definitely on the fence on this one.

I would love Miniature Horses to be a breed not a catchall height registry. The only way to do this is to have a closed registry not based on "you're small enough you're in criteria"!

I'm not anti-Shetland, in any way, as too many of my breeding herd are within two to four generations of Shetland lines. BUT I don't want to keep infusing that height into the breed for another 3,4..10 generations either. (I'm not anti-Morgan, Arab, Q-horse or any breed BTW, but I don't want them genetically brought into Minis either!)

BUT, I do feel AMHA is neglecting to address what becomes of foals out of two AMHA parents that go over 34"? They just disappear? Are grade? I'd rather know a mare I'm looking to purchase has produced - three foals in the 30-32" range and one that is 36" breed only registered rather than a spotty foaling history or a whole bunch of RV(revoked) on the studbook!

So, if you haven't covered your bases with double registering into AMHR, good luck selling that horse.

That to me is wrong.

Minis are too young of a breed still to do this. There should be a breed registry for the over 34" Minis out of two AMHA parents regardless of how tall (the same under 34" criteria on conformation, etc). Should that horse produce/sire under the 34" it should have full rights. The majority of responsible breeders won't breed a 40" mini/grade pony with the expectations of producing 30"-34" minis! What about all the driving minis that are right on the line height-wise now? That tall well moving foal out of two 33.50" minis is 34.25 and now worthless?

Until AMHA is willing to address this and admit the huge number of 'tall minis' into the registry and they are out there no matter how loudly people cry they aren't! Ignoring this is forcing us to have double register to avoid the potential 'grade pony' situation or break the rule on turning in oversized minis paperwork.

I turned in one mare of mines and have regretted it for 8 years as she's had three foals 30", 31" and one that might ding over 34" - all are out of AMHA sires, but she's non-existent with OV on the studbook, so the foals are AMHR only.

 

[JWC sr.]

With a lot of interest I read all the replies to this topic and have several comments on the subject. I was at an AMHA show this weekend and the topic came up so it is still fresh on my feeble mind.

First it does not surprise me that AMHR took the approach they did on this subject as they have prided themselves in recent years in doing things that are inclusive not exclusive. By that I mean encouraging people to participate at every level on the registry. This maximizes incoming cash flow and also the number of people/horses they attract to the fictions IE shows etc they have around the country including the National show in Tulsa.

The move by AMHA to close the registry has little to do with strengthening the breed in any way, but more to do about limiting the number of AMHA horses that are available to the people that want them etc.

There is a problem in the gene pool of the AMHA & AMHR horses with hereditary defects such as dwarfism. Closing of the registry will only intensify that problem and when a test is finally produced to reliably test for that trait a lot of people are going sadly surprised by the bloodlines that it is rampant in. If you don't believe that is a fact take the time to talk to John Eberth about his research and get the information directly from the horses mouth if you will.

In years past the AMHA horse was considered to be of better quality than the AMHR horse. Those days are long gone and it takes a really good horse in either registry to win.

I understand from one of the executive board members of AMHA that there is a movement to close the registry, but allow a reciprocal approach to hard-shipping in AMHR horses that can fulfill all the requirements of AMHA. To me that would make sense and would allow for most of the concerns I have heard from members of both registries to be addressed at the same time.

Bottom line we will continue to double register our horses in order give people options of what to do with our horses which is the ultimate goal. We also will continue to take the best of both registries and enjoy the positive people and experiences we have found in both the AMHA & AMHR show community.

 

[maryann]

We have several double registered horses. We prefer to show AMHR as we usually travel to nationals . Most of the shows we have here on the east Coast are Both AMHR and AMHA. That gives us the option to show in both shows which we often do. If it were an AMHA only show we would not travel just for that.By Exercising this option we are spreading our bucks over both registeries . When AMHA shuts out hardshipping of AMHR horses I will certainly miss this option with future horses. Wonder if they will miss my bucks?

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I really think we are just starting to understand these miniatures, what we are trying to breed for, etc... Heck AMHA just recently created a whole new driving division and they are still going to close the books. I think AMHA just wants to become a breeding registry they aren't seeing the bigger picture.

Also why does AMHA need to do the same that AMHR is doing. I don't see why they should allow it, and I'm sure it won't ever happen. AMHR the reason why I think they do it is it brings in more money for them and also your oversized A horses can go into AMHR in the B division.

Both registeries need to be different some how, otherwise whats the need for 2 registeries.

 

[Mellis815]

I 100% support closing the A registry. As for the AMHR allowing ponies into their registry, I think there should be a limit. We have the amhr/aspc in our show program, however when a farm is clearly bringing in a full bred ASPC pony into show against me, and they have the tiny little neck and the upright head, they are extremely hard to compete against, and unfortunately a lot (not all) but a lot of judges will place them high.

I am not saying to ban them, but perhaps they can be in a different class? such as maybe the "modern mini?". The stipulation being that if you are bringing an ASPC horse in to a regular mini class, they must have an AMHR registered ancestor in the bloodlines (not just based on height) and for the modern class they don't have to.

Just thoughts

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I 100% support closing the A registry. As for the AMHR allowing ponies into their registry, I think there should be a limit. We have the amhr/aspc in our show program, however when a farm is clearly bringing in a full bred ASPC pony into show against me, and they have the tiny little neck and the upright head, they are extremely hard to compete against, and unfortunately a lot (not all) but a lot of judges will place them high.

I am not saying to ban them, but perhaps they can be in a different class? such as maybe the "modern mini?". The stipulation being that if you are bringing an ASPC horse in to a regular mini class, they must have an AMHR registered ancestor in the bloodlines (not just based on height) and for the modern class they don't have to.

Just thoughts

Thats what make AMHR so compettitive. But until they seek some sort of breed standard, and allow themselves to become a breed, basiclly like AMHA wants to do but can't see it happenining, its a height registry and anything under 38" with A or ASPC papers can be in. Oh and also fabella

I thinking adding the shetlands tho its making people who want to be compettive and show will try and breed for better miniatures. The scary part is people are switching to AMHR/ASPC, and that is not the market I'm selling for. But there will still be some people out there that will want AMHA/AMHR or just AMHR itself. I'm honestly not sure if AMHA will become more popular by closing down the registry tho.

 

[disneyhorse]

AMHA closing the registry will NOT make it a "breed" because they have a height limitation.

With the ASPC Shetlands, which are a "breed"... if they go over the 46" height required to show, they never lose their papers, no matter how many times they are measured or how tall they are. They can continue to breed and contribute to the breed if the owner decides they have enough good qualities to outweigh the height.

And despite this allowance of "oversize" horses to keep their papers, guess what? For over a hundred years there are plenty of Shetlands that are under 46" tall

Andrea

 

[HGFarm]

POA's do NOT reject a horse if it goes oversized. It just cannot be shown, but still maintains it's papers as breeding stock.

As for AMHR allowing 'ponies' in to the registry, this is laughable. Take a hard look at how many major AMHA sires are Shetland, or have a LOT of Shetland blood!!! Many that are so highly spoken of have tons of Shetland background.

The registries are a HEIGHT registry, so I dont know why folks are compaining that horses that qualify are being allowed in! I find it humorous. And if the registry wants to make it a 'breed' they will end up like the QH situation and excessive white not being allowed for years... until a lawsuit came up. How can you say a horse from two registered QH parents is NOT a QH, just because of coloration.... so how will you be able to say it is not a Miniature, when both parents are registered, and it goes a little oversized? Same type of scenario really.

I personally think the more the merrier and gives much more choices in bloodlines.

 

[Bellissima Farm]

Reading all the posts on here is making me just shake my head....I am pretty sure there are only AMHA horses because of people breeding smaller and smaller ponies its not like 34" and under horses showed up out of the middle of no where. I think AMHA should be more worried about people registering minis with dwarf traits and bad conformation. As per who ever said they dont like how aspc horses come in the class and win because they have nice necks and so upright , would you not rather have a horse that is born with that conformation then trying to put neck sweats and lotion on to get your horses neck to look like that.....I feel amha is just closing there options of producing nicer horses. I wish there were stallion testing inspections with minis like they do with the warmbloods. Anything that meets the breed standard and will better the breed why wouldnt you let them be AMHA reg. AMHA is a registration that revolves around height like I just dont get the thinking that went into this than money oriented or worried about being beat by a nicer horse. I fully agree with what JWC sr said.

 

[Mellis815]

Reading all the posts on here is making me just shake my head....I am pretty sure there are only AMHA horses because of people breeding smaller and smaller ponies its not like 34" and under horses showed up out of the middle of no where. I think AMHA should be more worried about people registering minis with dwarf traits and bad conformation. As per who ever said they dont like how aspc horses come in the class and win because they have nice necks and so upright , would you not rather have a horse that is born with that conformation then trying to put neck sweats and lotion on to get your horses neck to look like that.....I feel amha is just closing there options of producing nicer horses. I wish there were stallion testing inspections with minis like they do with the warmbloods. Anything that meets the breed standard and will better the breed why wouldnt you let them be AMHA reg. AMHA is a registration that revolves around height like I just dont get the thinking that went into this than money oriented or worried about being beat by a nicer horse. I fully agree with what JWC sr said.

I am not saying that we don't have pony bloodlines in our minis, or any other breed for that matter. The breed was started by breeding smaller and smaller horses, but would you want to compete against a morgan, simply becuase he is short enough to be considered a Mini?? NO. Or an arab..what if there was one small enough to compete..would you show against it? The comment made about sweating necks and lotion on it, or would I rather have the confirmation to begin with is funny to me. Isn't that what we are trying to do anyways? Anyone who is breeding should be aiming for this quality (among others), thus not having to use the sweats. Many of the big trainers who DO interbreed the shetlands, still have to sweat necks. I am saying that there should be a limit. The ASPC/AMHR cross should still posses 90% of the traits of a mini, and not come in looking like a Pony straight from the farm. There is NO way, no matter how much you sweat necks that someone with a mini is going to get that thin of a neck, not going to happen, and I am afraid that once the registry is over taken by ponies we are going to lose sight of what the "registry" was originally started for.

 

[LaVern]

I used to go back and forth. thinking that perhaps I should hardship some into AMHA, before it closes, but I have made the decision not to do it. I can't base my future on what a few people may choose to do down the line. If I spend 10-15 thousand dollars on putting a few in, and then they change their minds down the line, it would make me crazy and the horses would be no better. I will spend my money feeding and caring for what I have and not another set of papers that will just cost me more.

 

[Little Hooves]

I'd love to see it if a Morgan or Arab could meet the height requirement It would be awesome - I think - to have a mini quarter horse breed, a mini morgan breed, a mini arab breed ---with REAL blood from the original breed...not just AMHA look-a-like ponies. That's right, I said ponies. Blasphemy, I know. But technically, minis are ponies. Anything that is 14.2 hands or under is a pony...last I checked.

Still, AMHA minis won't be diluted by this "pony blood" if the registry remained open - even if it did, the shows still determine the style the judges are looking for. And that brings me back full circle to...

Closing the registry --- if AMHA is truly focused on closing the registry because they want to be a breed with bloodlines, that's fine. But I doubt this is the reason. I think they're looking to increase value of AMHA horses (from my marketing mind's perspective).

It's not a "bloodline" based registry if it excludes horses within the bloodline - when a horse matures 33" compared to a full sibling that matures 35" - one stays in, one is kicked out - each have the same bloodline and quality conformation, but only one is eligible for their "breed." So, no - I doubt closing is to be a breed. I only see it as a way to make the registry more exclusive.

I'd like to see a breeding stock portion of the registry develop if it remains closed. A foal of registered parents should have registry rights in my mind! I know - it's a fantasy

 

[horsehug]

Brenda,

I totally agree with you!!

And as to calling them ponies........I for sure agree with you!

Some of mine I know for sure are just bred down (in height) from papered shetlands a few years back and no longer have their shetland papers. Papers do not change their genetics.

Even AMHA used to refer to them as midget ponies before they realized that calling them miniature horses would make them more marketable as rare and exotic little creatures.

I'm glad you started this thread. It is always interesting to hear how people feel on the hardship issue, and to me it is also interesting to see how many do not know that minis are in fact ponies.

People learn from threads like this.

Like I said before, rules can be changed and AMHA might find they need to open back up the hardship registry as time goes by........ or possibly allow registering of AMHR into AMHA like JWC Senior mentioned.

They might also someday realize that two parents usually produce whatever breed THEY are, not some other species or breed!

Susan O.

 

[krissy3]

Living in Europe we cant hardship anyway...so this does not bother me. However I do see bad breeding in the ultra small mini here, so they will fit into the AMHA height standard. The are not very nice looking . I hope this will not promote bad breeding here in Europe in the attempt to get a very small foal. From what I see already ...anything under 31 inches here looks like a dwarf... There are a few that were imported from the US that look balanced, but those bred here definatly dont look healthy or balanced IMO. The 32 -34 inch horses look a lot better here. I dont know if its because the people here are new to this breed and dont know how to take care of them, or because they are making bad choices in their breeding program. I dont think the closing of hardshipping will effect Europe, but i could be wrong. One thing I do see here ...that I knew would have to happen sometime... is the opening up of AMHR and oversized minis in our AMHA shows. We are seeing more and more 34-35 inch AMHA AMHR horses here produced by AMHA parents... Would this change make AMHR a stronger club?

I also read here that AMHA papers can become permanant at age 3 ..I thought it was 5 , and AMHR was 3 ...am I wrong?

krissy

 

[Songcatcher]

I also read here that AMHA papers can become permanant at age 3 ..I thought it was 5 , and AMHR was 3 ...am I wrong?

krissy

You were right up until Jan. 1, 2010. AMHA can now go permanent at 3 years.

 

[Sue_C.]

I'd like to see a breeding stock portion of the registry develop if it remains closed. A foal of registered parents should have registry rights

I agree in part. While ANY foal resulting from registered stock should have registry rights, nothing over the 34" limit should be bred...or, if allowed to breed, it must be bred to animals that are 34" or under.

 

[sfmini]

You are dead wrong about trying to bring in more money, closing the books will, in fact bring in less money.

This was not a last minute decision, this rule change was proposed over 5 years ago and it was decided to set a date far enough into the future to protect those people who had bought young horses with the plan of hardshipping when they were old enough. It's not like this has come out of the blue or is any great surprise, and any one of you could have submitted a rule change proposal to kill it at any time. You don't have to be at a meeting to submit a rule change proposal.

As for coming perm at 3, you do have the option of waiting until the expiration date printed on your papers so this transition wouldn't cause financial hardship.

The comment about the few changing the rules, take a good look at AMHR and tell me how many have a vote. From what I have been told by others the number of voters is the number of board members. Membership attending have no vote, and few of those board members have minis. If that isn't the case, I stand corrected.

 

[LaVern]

I don't think that there is really is much of a problem with AMHA horses going over 34 inches. A few years back I checked with AMHA and they said that there was only a handful that were turned in that year. So it must only be Forum members that get too tall horses. I don't think it ever happens with our elite breeders and the top trainers, because surely they would set an example for us and give those papers up..

 

[krissy3]

I also read here that AMHA papers can become permanant at age 3 ..I thought it was 5 , and AMHR was 3 ...am I wrong?

krissy

You were right up until Jan. 1, 2010. AMHA can now go permanent at 3 years.

OH... then I am in this month... cool !

 

[krissy3]

I don't think that there is really is much of a problem with AMHA horses going over 34 inches. A few years back I checked with AMHA and they said that there was only a handful that were turned in that year. So it must only be Forum members that get too tall horses. I don't think it ever happens with our elite breeders and the top trainers, because surely they would set an example for us and give those papers up..

are you kidding ??? That Id like to see, but then honest people are hard to come by these days. It sure would be nice though , if people followed the rules.