AMHA closing its books in 2013

[Aristocratic Minis]

John C. had some great points to make in his post.

Down the line, possibly for economic considerations, I believe the AMHA will open again if it does, indeed close.

I really salute the AMHA for many things they are doing such as requiring DNA records.

I do not know if it will become a "breed" club due to the different "types" unless the horses are divided into different groups as they are in ASPC.

In my experience with with animal registries over the years, both in AKC, dog breed clubs and in Quarter Horses, rules and registries are changed according to needs - whether it is economic needs, health needs, and response to breeder needs and exhibitor group influence.

In Quarter Horses, for example, years ago, each horse had to be "approved" by an inspector before they could be registered. An appointment had to be scheduled with an inspector who would give you the good news or bad news. With the growth of the breed into the thousands and thousands, it was economically impossible for each horse to be inspected before registration.

In response to genetic health concerns, AQHA required an HYPP status to appear on registration records.

Partly due to economic consideration and partly due to breeders' input, the AQHA decided to change "the white rule" for horses with excessive white markings to become eligible for registration. Registration rules are not written in stone. To be a viable registry, rules and regulations will change with time for various reasons.

A number of horse breed clubs have open stud books and will allow inclusion of animals who meet conformational or performance standards. This allows a continual influx of gene flow.

As health issues come up, scientific and breeders input becomes important and economic conditions change, I feel certain AMHA will respond

Sorry - too long winded.

 

[loveminis]

I don't breed or show so it doesn't really affect me. I find this topic interesting though.

Even though I am a fan of the smaller minis (30" and under), I cannot understand why AMHA would not hardship an under 34" AMHR registered mini. As long as they are truly UNDER 34". I think it is a mistake that they will regret. The quality of the horses will be compromised. JMO.

 

[LaVern]

Was just going to add that of course it never happens to me either, that is why I have never turned one in. --- Lucky Hart Ranch breeders of Straight B Miniature Horses and some shorter ones.

 

[Songcatcher]

I don't think that there is really is much of a problem with AMHA horses going over 34 inches. A few years back I checked with AMHA and they said that there was only a handful that were turned in that year. So it must only be Forum members that get too tall horses. I don't think it ever happens with our elite breeders and the top trainers, because surely they would set an example for us and give those papers up..

are you kidding ??? That Id like to see, but then honest people are hard to come by these days. It sure would be nice though , if people followed the rules.

That sounded to me like a blanket accusation against AMHA breeders by someone who doesn't even breed for AMHA. One look at the number of horses on the AMHA Studbook whose status is Revoked should be enough to dispell this as being the general practice. Does it ever happen? Of course. Do R horses ever go over 38 inches and continue to be bred and registered? I don't pay much attention to that size horses, but I'm sure they do. There are always people in every group that will stretch the limits.

 

[LaVern]

I breed maybe 15-20 honest sized( pushing the limit) AMHA horses a year. I don't like to sell AMHA horses with their papers (they get the AMHR) if they even look like they will go over as babies, because they would want a replacement if it gets too tall. And they pick the tallest ones. But I don't turn them in. Revoked does not mean turned in. It just means sitting in the file for whatever reason, and I have a bunch of them. I will not throw that recorded knowledge and DNAing away.

 

[HGFarm]

Ok, here is an interesting scenario.

I know someone who had a mare that went over 34", and being the honest person that she is, contacted AMHA and told them that the mare was over, and to cancel the papers. They did. The mare was eventually sold and a new owner insisted that they could get her measured in at 34 and wanted her papers. The old owner KNEW that there was no way that this mare would measure under 34", and refused to give them the papers- as they are still in her filing cabinet as well.

She did find out that if the new owner had 'somehow managed' to get this mare measured in at 34", or had brought those papers to perminant at 34", they would have been using this mare as an AMHA mare. She also found that if she had turned the papers in to AMHA, and someone insisted the mare was 34" and had it 'inspected' as such, they could get the A papers back. So, like my friend, I will not send back papers on a horse that I know is over sized- to avoid the dishonest practices that these other folks attempted.

And I agree, looking throught the stud books, there are a LOT of horses with revoked papers from being oversized, so I dont know how there is only a handful!

 

[LaVern]

I must go look. Maybe there are more O's than I thought. I remember lots of Revoked's Maybe I'm the only sorta dishonest one.

I don't know do you guys think it is awful to just sit on them and not send them back Overed'd. See my thinking and hoping and dreaming for years was that eventually AMHA would come around and do the oversized thing. Back in the AMHA hayday it seemed like it would be so cool. I have always felt I had more in common with other miniature breeders than the shetland pony breeders.

So I felt that if I kept the papers in my desk on the too tall horses and pQ'd them, but didn't permanent them, if they ever did open it up I would be set to go. Used the AMHR and registered them B

But, I don't see that happening ever and AMHR has made such tremendous progress and with Kentucky taking the DNA from Davis it probably doesn't matter. And the B horse has become so synonymous with AMHR.

 

[tagalong]

Of course. Do R horses ever go over 38 inches and continue to be bred and registered? I don't pay much attention to that size horses, but I'm sure they do.

I'm sure they do, too. Oversize horses being registered and bred does not only apply to one registry...

 

[chandab]

I don't know do you guys think it is awful to just sit on them and not send them back Overed'd. See my thinking and hoping and dreaming for years was that eventually AMHA would come around and do the oversized thing. Back in the AMHA hayday it seemed like it would be so cool. I have always felt I had more in common with other miniature breeders than the shetland pony breeders.

So I felt that if I kept the papers in my desk on the too tall horses and pQ'd them, but didn't permanent them, if they ever did open it up I would be set to go. Used the AMHR and registered them B

But, I don't see that happening ever and AMHR has made such tremendous progress and with Kentucky taking the DNA from Davis it probably doesn't matter. And the B horse has become so synonymous with AMHR.

You are not the only one. My stallion went over, I have his AMHA papers sitting in my file, hoping one day they might have an over division (even if only for breeding stock). I also have an application for a mare that went over sitting in my file waiting (both her parents are DNAd, so I can late register her if the opportunity ever arises). And, I have a 3 year old double registered filly, that is already over her A papers, and they will stay in the file waiting. If not, then I have 3 lovely R registered horses.

 

[LaVern]

Hey, this is interesting. Back in the beginning I sold a lot of B bred miniatures that I knew were going to or had gone over 38" as just ponies-- no papers. I still do once in awhile as even after all these years it still happens. But, there again I have never sent the papers into the office as oversized. There they are in my desk. I wonder if anyone has ever turned in the papers on a B miniature. I have to go look at stud AMHR stud book, can't remember does it say anything on there?

 

[Riverdance]

I think closing the AMHA books will strengthen the miniature horse "BREED". It will allow it to become a "Breed" based on bloodlines, while maintaining the height. I was at an AMHA/AMHR show recently, and was shocked by the differences in the horses in the 2 associations. There is a distinct difference, and with AMHR allowing more and more ponies into their registry, the differences will be substantial. I prefer AMHA type horses, but there are no AMHA shows within 200 miles. If there were, I would be strictly AMHA.

The POA has a height restriction also, and nobody calls them a "height" breed. If the POA goes over, it's out of the registry. Period. Not makinga whole new division.

I totally agree with you. I too have noticed a big difference with what AMHR likes verses what AMHA likes. We too do not any just AMHA shows (except for the State Fair show). The shows that we do have around here have AMHR one day and AMHA the next. Unfortunately, we still have the same judges, who just spent a whole day the day before, looking at AMHR horses. These judges are typically AMHR judges first, but have their AMHA license. Sometimes we will have just one AMHA judge. I always do very well under the AMHA judge, but not as well under the AMHR judges on the AMHA show day.

It gets really frustrating for sure. When I would travel to a 2 day AMHA only show, my horses always did quite well.

I also find that many of the AMHR judges are paint and quarter horse judges too. They, of course, like a paint or a Mini that looks like a quarter Horse. All of which I do not have.

I have nothing against AMHR, as it is as good a club as any horse club, but people will chose to breed a Morgan, Arabian, Paint, Quarter Horse or what ever, and join that club. I prefer the look of the horses in AMHA than AMHR (Before you flame me, yes, all of my horses are double registered and many of my horses have done well in AMHR, but I do believe we all have out own tastes and join the club that fits our taste the best).

Hopefully, AMHA will be able to finally make the Miniature Horse a horse breed now, rather than just a height breed. One can not get a certain type and look when a registry is open to so many bloodlines. AMHR tends to go more towards the pony look, regardless of the height. (Again, nothing against ponies. They are beautiful, but I prefer having a horse that looks just like a Miniature Horse, not a Miniature Pony) Many breeds of horses, do not look like ponies. If we want to make the Miniature Horse a breed, we have to start with closing the books.

 

[Riverdance]

Reading all the posts on here is making me just shake my head....I am pretty sure there are only AMHA horses because of people breeding smaller and smaller ponies its not like 34" and under horses showed up out of the middle of no where. I think AMHA should be more worried about people registering minis with dwarf traits and bad conformation. As per who ever said they dont like how aspc horses come in the class and win because they have nice necks and so upright , would you not rather have a horse that is born with that conformation then trying to put neck sweats and lotion on to get your horses neck to look like that.....I feel amha is just closing there options of producing nicer horses. I wish there were stallion testing inspections with minis like they do with the warmbloods. Anything that meets the breed standard and will better the breed why wouldnt you let them be AMHA reg. AMHA is a registration that revolves around height like I just dont get the thinking that went into this than money oriented or worried about being beat by a nicer horse. I fully agree with what JWC sr said.

Do you honestly believe that trainers, regardless of the breed of horse, do not use neck sweats, lotions, neoprene sweats, what ever, to get their horses necks and throat latches as thin as possible? These items are made for full size horses as well as, ponies and Miniatures. I would be willing to bet you that not one horse or pony entering the show ring with a trainer has not had its neck sweated.

 

[Mellis815]

Reading all the posts on here is making me just shake my head....I am pretty sure there are only AMHA horses because of people breeding smaller and smaller ponies its not like 34" and under horses showed up out of the middle of no where. I think AMHA should be more worried about people registering minis with dwarf traits and bad conformation. As per who ever said they dont like how aspc horses come in the class and win because they have nice necks and so upright , would you not rather have a horse that is born with that conformation then trying to put neck sweats and lotion on to get your horses neck to look like that.....I feel amha is just closing there options of producing nicer horses. I wish there were stallion testing inspections with minis like they do with the warmbloods. Anything that meets the breed standard and will better the breed why wouldnt you let them be AMHA reg. AMHA is a registration that revolves around height like I just dont get the thinking that went into this than money oriented or worried about being beat by a nicer horse. I fully agree with what JWC sr said.

Do you honestly believe that trainers, regardless of the breed of horse, do not use neck sweats, lotions, neoprene sweats, what ever, to get their horses necks and throat latches as thin as possible? These items are made for full size horses as well as, ponies and Miniatures. I would be willing to bet you that not one horse or pony entering the show ring with a trainer has not had its neck sweated.

I agree 100% with both of your posts!

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Laughing at how many of us have the RV horses paperwork in files! I did send in a few early on so they have OV on the studbook, but now I let them go RV, hoping AMHA will wake up! It's frustrating as all get out, especially when that RV/OV mare produces foals under 34" but I'm so out of luck now!

I'd love to only support one registry in all honesty, but AMHA makes that impossible with the blind eye to anything over 34" being grade.

As was pointed out as far as voting goes - AMHA may only allow voting at the Convention, but AMHR it's the board populated by Shetland owners that do the voting, so don't think otherwise! In all honesty, I do have a real hard time with a horse being a Shetland today and a Mini tomorrow. But then again a "breed" vs a "height registry". Not denying Shetland's contribution to forming Minis. Great breed, but I want Minis!

If AMHA can make minis into Minis the breed - yeah! Just hope they'll eventually address the oversize breeding stock registry they all know is needed.

 

[krissy3]

Ok, here is an interesting scenario.

I know someone who had a mare that went over 34", and being the honest person that she is, contacted AMHA and told them that the mare was over, and to cancel the papers. They did. The mare was eventually sold and a new owner insisted that they could get her measured in at 34 and wanted her papers. The old owner KNEW that there was no way that this mare would measure under 34", and refused to give them the papers- as they are still in her filing cabinet as well.

She did find out that if the new owner had 'somehow managed' to get this mare measured in at 34", or had brought those papers to perminant at 34", they would have been using this mare as an AMHA mare. She also found that if she had turned the papers in to AMHA, and someone insisted the mare was 34" and had it 'inspected' as such, they could get the A papers back. So, like my friend, I will not send back papers on a horse that I know is over sized- to avoid the dishonest practices that these other folks attempted.

And I agree, looking throught the stud books, there are a LOT of horses with revoked papers from being oversized, so I dont know how there is only a handful!

I got to tell you that I have a mare that is pushing 34.5 and I was very concerned about this. I cant tell you how many people responded to my post in a private message telling me to go ahead and measure her under and get the papers to permanant. I will have her measured at the next show , by a professional, and if she is 34 ..great...if not then I have a very nice refined AMHR horse. There are a lot of people keeping the 35 inch brood mares in the back pasture ... you bet there are , not a handful.

 

[Becky]

And I agree, looking throught the stud books, there are a LOT of horses with revoked papers from being oversized, so I dont know how there is only a handful!

I can tell you that there are equally as many or more horses with the revoked (RV) status in the studbooks that are not oversize. They simply have never been taken permanent by their current owners. When I see 'RV' in the studbooks, I don't automatically think oversize.

 

[loveminis]

I agree with Becky. When I look up horses I know, the RV is always because they were not transferred or renewed.

 

[Charlotte]

Well this is really interesting. It got me thinking so I went to the stud books and checked the foals we have bred. Here are the stats:

66 total foals registered

13 marked as RV (revoked)

One of those I am sure went oversize. One 'might' have gone over. The rest were never taken permanent and for sure didn't go over.....may not have gone over 30"! (oh, one of the RV and one that will soon be RV are deceased)

6 are due to go perm this year or next and have never been transfered out of our name so I'd say those will end up RV too. (I didn't record how many under 4 years of age are still in our name)

If our farm is an example of how the stats run I guess something like 98% of RV horses just never got taken perm? That's what it sounds like to me.

I think when people aren't showing horses or aren't breeding they see no reason to have any interest in paperwork. And those that are exported are often registered with a foreign organization so never get taken perm or even transferred. I don't see any way to change this.

(I sure am glad I'm not having to FEED all of those horses I own!)

So I'd say the bottom line is REVOKED papers is most likely a case of paperwork not done rather than lots and lots of oversize horses out there.

Charlotte

 

[Reble]

I have said Revoked is not the proper word for years.

Have mentioned this to the registry.

You are correct, people buy but do not take the time to transfer or do the paper work for permanent.

 

[Songcatcher]

Well this is really interesting. It got me thinking so I went to the stud books and checked the foals we have bred. Here are the stats:

66 total foals registered

13 marked as RV (revoked)

One of those I am sure went oversize. One 'might' have gone over. The rest were never taken permanent and for sure didn't go over.....may not have gone over 30"! (oh, one of the RV and one that will soon be RV are deceased)

6 are due to go perm this year or next and have never been transfered out of our name so I'd say those will end up RV too. (I didn't record how many under 4 years of age are still in our name)

If our farm is an example of how the stats run I guess something like 98% of RV horses just never got taken perm? That's what it sounds like to me.

I think when people aren't showing horses or aren't breeding they see no reason to have any interest in paperwork. And those that are exported are often registered with a foreign organization so never get taken perm or even transferred. I don't see any way to change this.

(I sure am glad I'm not having to FEED all of those horses I own!)

So I'd say the bottom line is REVOKED papers is most likely a case of paperwork not done rather than lots and lots of oversize horses out there.

Charlotte

I can see how my earlier post may have given a different impression from what I intended. I did NOT mean that all or even most of the Revoked horses have gone oversize. My intent was that there are some oversize which owners simply do not go to the effort to turn in papers, for what ever reason.

There was an insinuation earlier that a large portion of horses that go oversize are dishonestly taken permanent and continue to be be bred and foals registered from. While I'm sure there are some, I don't think the majority are. I think many owners of a horse that goes oversize simply do not go to the effort to turn in papers and they wind up revoked.

Charlotte, I think your stats are interesting, but not necessarily representative of the overall picture as you specifically breed for the smaller horses and therefore would have a smaller number that go oversize than would a breeder who breeds for a 33.5 inch horse.