AMHA Hardship Closing

[jaymie124]

Oh! I wasn't aware there was any R shows! Ive tried looking online but didn't see anything. Thanks for making me aware of my mistake! I'll definitely have to check that out now.

 

[Tony]

In my opinion the AMHA was started because at that time ASPC/AMHR was doing nothing to promote miniatures. Minis were simply a sideline cash influx for the organization. At that time and for many years to be on the board you had to own a Shetland, even if you were actively breeding miniatures. I don't know the status of that at this point.

 

[Suzie]

I think closing the registry so soon may have serious financial consequences on AMHA. It could be the death bell. I don't know about other areas of the county, but in my region attendance at AMHA shows has seriously declined. The AMHR is definitely picking up. Years ago I would not even have looked at buying an AMHR only horse. Not any more...

I wrote a nice long letter to my delegate, who was supposed to present it at last winter's meeting for me, since I could not personally afford to attend, explaining my concerns and asking for a response. Every eligible horse excluded from here on out not only weakens the gene pool, but cuts AMHA off from any future fees from registering progeny of that horse (or the progeny of that horse's progeny). Permanently. Add that up. You might be surprised at the amount one less hardship would be x 5 years for ONE HORSE. With the decline in breeding and probably the decline in registering horses, plus the loss of revenues locally (the AMHA show dates have declined from 2 full days to 1/2 a day in showing around here) that is going to take a toll over the next few years. A decline in 2 days to 1/2 day shows me interest has seriously waned for AMHA only horses.

I have a couple of horses I am debating about hardshipping into AMHA before it closes. They certainly have extremely good bloodlines. They are well within the guidelines. However, I am seriously considering the huge fee to do so at this time. Not for the price now, but I wonder if I can recoup that fee down the line if AMHA should vanish. I would be a huge waste of my time and resources if it did. I expressed my concerns to my AMHA delegate and was told "AMHA is too big to go out of business". Well, this is not the same economy as before and one look at Wall Street can tell you nothing is too big to go out of business. Given enough bad choices, they are all at risk.

In looking to set up a new club here locally for minis, I found AMHR to be 10 times more helpful to me. As such, our group chose to be AMHR affliated. I have never really been an AMHR person, but have surely changed my attitudes of late. If we have enough interest in AMHA down the road, maybe. But certainly not soon. AMHR has much more to offer us as a group.

As a breeder, it is becoming more and more clear to me that current buyers are not really interested in registering a horse. They just want a nice horse. Professional trainers may not fall into this category, but I have a sneaking suspicion that many, many more horses are sold to "regular" folks these days than professionals. The cost of showing is going up, the cost of transportation is going up and the economy is far from a turn around for most of the country. I still sell nice horses for reasonable prices, but since I only breed for a small number now due to supply/demand, that still cuts down on the registry fees I pay to either registry. And this seems to be a national trend. Read the sale board. At least every other one says "due to cutting back"...and who can blame them.

Old breeders do not hold the reins. I am an "old" breeder now, at least I consider myself so. I have always done double registered horses for the convience of my buyers. They can choose. I at least expected a comment from AMHA on my letter to them, but got nothing. I guess all the money and years I have spent with them are not of any consequence. As a long time member (at a lot of expense to be so) my opinion to them is valueless. The old adage "you get what you pay for" obviously does not hold with some registries.

Finances hold the reins. Let the coffers get low enough and you will see changes (or reversals) of things. Probably not that many horses have been hardshipped before and many have been done so since this rule was passed, but subtract the income from hardshipping (along with the general decline in revenue that we have all seen) over the next 5 years and see what happens after that. If AMHA continues on this current path, I may drop registering my foals at birth and let the buyer decide. No use throwing good money after bad in my opinion. If they want to be AMHA, they can do it.

Of course, as always, this is JUST my opinion.

 

[HGFarm]

Melinda I agree with you- and think it should still be submitted to vote on. Just because one failed doesnt mean to give up.

Also,I just passed up a beautiful mare that is R only because I am not going to pay that much money again to hardship into A this year- I just can't afford it, so though this mare is top quality, I am not going to purchase an R only horse when all of mine are double registered, so yes, the A is missing out on future reg. fees from this mares offspring, show fees, etc.... too bad.

 

[Riverrose28]

I have a question concerning AMHA harshipping. Why does it cost so much to hardship in an AMHR horse that qualifies? I understand the DNA fee and the expense involved in getting the horse inspected by a director, but why is the fee itself so high? I think more would hardship in if the cost wasn't so prohibitive. My Granson has an AMHR gelding that is a great show horse, but we don't have the money to hardship him into AMHA, the cost is rediculous.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I have a question concerning AMHA harshipping. Why does it cost so much to hardship in an AMHR horse that qualifies? I understand the DNA fee and the expense involved in getting the horse inspected by a director, but why is the fee itself so high? I think more would hardship in if the cost wasn't so prohibitive. My Granson has an AMHR gelding that is a great show horse, but we don't have the money to hardship him into AMHA, the cost is rediculous.

I feel those who voted to close AMHA is because they don't want to have AMHR horses keep coming into the gene pool. With AMHR being so involved with the Shetlands now they don't want to see the same thing happen in AMHA, which I can understand but they are limiting themselves. That's why I can not see a reason why they would vote to allow hardshipping of AMHR horses. I have only one A/R gelding, I would love too hardship my other 2 into AMHA but like you said not at these prices. Once it closes the door is closed to me for AMHA as well.

I also agree that they would need breeding papers to those who do go over or I feel that could be a big legal issue.

 

[stormy]

I can never understand the vehemence against AMHA for closing the registry. Breeders seem to forget AMHR slammed the door shut several years ago with no warning whatsoever also impacting many breeding programs. AMHA has had the decency to give breeders notice and time to hardship horses they deem worth the expense.

I also fail to understand how leaving the door open to the Shetland increases genetic diversity. Shetlands are one of the most inbred populations of horses out there and qualify as a minor breed due to their very small population size. It appears in the case of AMHR leaving the registry open to the Shetland has actually limited the genetic pool and is decreasing genetic diversity with obvious preference at shows and within the registry itself for the double registered horse only, blends will never have ASPC papers which means less than 5% of the registry is being used to produce future generations of miniature ponies.

Lastly I just do not understand this feeling that ALL small equines should be pony types. Do we really need 3 registries all promoting, showing and breeding the exact same type horse? Why this resistance to allowing a registry with a much larger and more diverse population of horses then the Shetland registry(which has existed as a closed book for some years now) truly become a registry? I also will have some beautiful descendants of my AMHR B horses I will not be able to hardship and I sure wish I could as they are terrific individuals and AMHR does not want them anymore but I will live with it and continue to support AMHA as a true registry as it develops its own unique and special breed of small equine.

And I will also for now continue as a member of AMHR hoping that soon they will recognize the value of the single registered horse and understand diversity is the key to success and throwing away the 95% to favor the 5% makes no sense genetically or fiscally!

 

[Lewella]

Okay, this gives me a chuckle because the American Shetland is extremely diverse genetically thanks to 20 years of open registration from the mid 1970's to the mid 1990's in which Hackney ponies, Welsh ponies, and Americana ponies were accepted outcrosses.

 

[stormy]

Lewella yet if you look at pedigrees, and I know you know them better then most, many shetlands go back multiple times to the same stallion. You have kind of just proved my case too, ASPC has been closed since ~1990. There are far fewer american shetlands then miniature horses as in ~1/10 ratio which makes miniature background just by numbers much more diverse then the shetland registry when it closed. If the shetland registry is able to exist as a closed registry AMHA should also be able to suceed.

 

[Lewella]

Ah but Stormy, that's assuming pedigrees are correct... and lord knows cross breeding was going on long before it ever became legal!

 

[HGFarm]

Well expect to see the same thing happen with AMHA due to the now limited gene pools to what is currently in there.

 

[Minimor]

You also have to keep in mind that the Shetlands don't have the problem of dwarfism. It may have been there at one time but it has been culled out and is no longer an issue. That makes a huge difference!

 

[SilverRose Farms]

I also will have some beautiful descendants of my AMHR B horses I will not be able to hardship and I sure wish I could as they are terrific individuals and AMHR does not want them anymore but I will live with it and continue to support AMHA as a true registry as it develops its own unique and special breed of small equine.

And I will also for now continue as a member of AMHR hoping that soon they will recognize the value of the single registered horse and understand diversity is the key to success and throwing away the 95% to favor the 5% makes no sense genetically or fiscally!

AMHR / ASPC do have a registry for any horses out of or by a registered AMHR or ASPC horse/pony. They formed the NSPPR.

This is copied from the Registry's webpage

National Sport Performance Pony

 

National Sport Performance Ponies … If A Little More Pony is What You Are Looking For!The newest small equine recognized by the American Shetland Pony Club is the National Sport Performance Pony. ASPC established the National Sport Performance Pony Registry in 2003 to allow small equine fanciers a chance to use their Shetlands or Miniatures to breed hardy sport-type ponies. Although the original goals for NSPPR often centered on creating sporty riding ponies, today’s small NSPPR contingent is another versatile small equine option.

 

National Sport Performance Ponies (NSPPR) are required to have one purebred Shetland or Miniature parent while the other can be ANY breed or cross. That means one parent has to be a registered and DNA’d American Shetland Pony or American Miniature Horse.

 

NSPPR animals can measure up to a full 14.2 hands at the wither. National Sport Performance Ponies are often used under saddle in hunter or western classes including hunter hack and jumping classes at the Congress. The National Sport Performance Pony division allows youth and small adults to enjoy riding a pony with Shetland attributes longer than they can with a traditional American Shetland.

 

More recently, NSPPR driving has been integrated into Shetland Pony shows. National Sport Performance Ponies are often used in carriage performance classes, CDE competitions and ADT trials.

In 2012, Performance Halter, Showmanship, In Hand Trail, and Longe Line Classes were added for the National Sport Performance Ponies.

 

For those already involved in the ASPC and AMHR, the NSPPR provides the only registry where a cross between a Shetland-only and Miniature-only animal is recognized.

And while you cant breed an NSPPR horse to another and get a registered NSPPR animal it still allows them to be shown and promoted and collect points ect. So with that are they still truly "Closed"? They gave another name to the cross breds but still recognize them. Some breeds make the foals even from approved crosses earn the right to full papers. So having the foals registered with NSPPR is not really that different in my eyes than making them earn their papers.

 

[hippocampe]

Closing the registry may be the best thing in the world for people with AMHA registered horses. If the registry is closed, than members can SUE to keep papers on any horses out of 2 AMHA parents that go over 34".

Does it mean there would'nt exist any temporary registration needed to be brought to permanent anymore?

 

[stormy]

You also have to keep in mind that the Shetlands don't have the problem of dwarfism. It may have been there at one time but it has been culled out and is no longer an issue. That makes a huge difference!

It may not be as prevelent but I have had a dwarf born to a registered shetland mare in the past...again without DNA all shetland background is questionable but the mare was a part of the registry with registered shetland parentage according to her papers.

Saying "....if the shetland registry is able to exist as a closed registry, AMHA should also be able to succeed......," I would question that statement. You forget, the shetland registry has the same reasonable fees as the AMHR. That can NOT be said of the AMHA -- and I think that puts the longevity of the entire registry in question -- let alone closing the hardshipping.

Keep in mind that without AMHR, ASPC would not be able to survive as a registry as it is now, AMHR subsidizes ASPC very heavily. The higher fees with AMHA, though they hurt, do make it more fiscally solvent. There are also MANY more horses registered with AMHA then ASPC going into this and there is always the option to open to select breeds/types in the future as ASPC has done in the past if limited genetics becomes an issue. Breeding stock papers would help keep AMHA viable for sure.

Another point here, AMHA closing effectively closes AMHR also, that is AMHR is no longer just a height breed as not any horse under 38" can be registered anymore. The gene pool for AMHR will be limited to AMHR horses, AMHA horses, many of which overlap, ASPC horses, again many of which overlap, and falabella.

 

[Minimor]

How long ago was that foal born stormy? There is NO evidence of dwarfism currently existing in the ASPC gene pool, and I have confirmed that with people who know more about it than I do.

AMHR is not subsidising ASPC, ASPC it is reaping the benefits of the foresight of the powers that were in the early 1970's.  AMHR would not exist without ASPC.  Without AMHR the ASPC would still exist though on a smaller scale and would likely have had no need or desire for many of the things that money is currently spent on.  This is really one of those apples to oranges comparisons.   

ASPC opened when it did to get the fraud out of the closet and out into the open so it could eventually be curbed.  It worked quite well and pedigrees from the last 40 years are much more accurate than the pedigrees were from 20 years prior to that when many breeders had a Hackney stallion behind the barn and a few Welsh broodmares in their herd. 

AMHR has been closed to any grade horse between 34" and 38" for many years; AMHA has no effect on that at all--and AMHR does continue to allow small ASPC ponies to be registered--and no matter what you believe ASPC does still have many lines which are 'new' to AMHR.

Even though some pony pedigrees appear to be quite heavy in line breeding, there are still many different lines out there, giving the Shetlands more diversity than you imagine. Registration numbers don't give the full picture when it comes to diversity of bloodlines.

 

[stormy]

Minimor I am not trying to say there is no diversity in the shetland, there is but as far as the gene pool goes shetlands are more limited then AMHA minis just by the shear numbers. Thee is no logical reason why AMHA should not be able to stand as a closed book, many smaller registries exist and have existed for a long time, Fjords, Friesians, Icelandics, Shetlands, etc.

 

[joylee123]

I have an AMHR mare I planned to hardship next year! I hadn't heard this yet. This makes me a little worried I just see it that my mare fits perfectly with my AMHA mare and there is no reason to not allow my R mare in. Im pretty sure losts of people feel the same. Also in Kansas there are no R shows and you have to be A to show in our state fair something I was really looking forward too doing when I had hardshipped her. I think in Kansas this will be a bad thing not nearly as many people will be able to show around here and I think AMHA will lose money from hard shipping fees and new member fees to register their horses. I just do not think this is a good idea at all. Im all for somehow preventing this change! And I am sure there a plenty of people behind me.

There are AMHR shows in Lyons Kansas