AMHA MEMBERS THAT WANT TO VOTE BY MAIL OR INTERNET BALLOTS.......read this

[R3]

You have to keep my statement in context, and that was: Why it is so important to cover all the issues. It doesn't mean a 'nobody' will not be listened to, but they DO have a harder time being heard. They have to have all their 'ducks in a row'. I was just trying to point out some 'realities', not trying to say it is impossible.

A person who is familiar to a group, and especially one who already has 'status' in a group will have their ideas more readily accepted. That isn't anything to do with a particular group (AMHA), it is human nature.

It is always harder for the 'new guy', or the 'little guy' to make an impact, but again, that's just because of human nature. It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try though. Giving up will never produce results.

I am a 'nobody'. I am an amateur. I like to take my horses to local parades. I show very little, and what I do are not the 'glamour' classes. I don't show halter, or any of the 'pleasure' type driving classes. I like Halter Obstacle, Driving Obstacle, Hunter, Jumper, and those types of things, and I do all the work myself, with no help from a trainer, or even my family. But, I have a big mouth, a lot of opinions, and fortunately, I have a fairly thick skin, so I keep on trying to make a difference. I would encourage you to do the same.

 

[McBunz]

I wasn't planning on giving up...LOL..... We just have to get the other nobodies to stand together and say

we want positive change.. I am not one to post the "me too things" and I am not easily riled, but this

bottom of the withers thing was just to much to take.. Why can't the powers of the AMHA insist that the

rules be followed and follow these same rules themselves.. I don't show and never will.. to old

to start now.. but I do want to see that the people who do show are not being cheated in the ring..

I do want to see the ordinary member have the right to vote on matters important to them.. And I want

the standard left alone until something better comes along to replace it.....not just something because

somebody wants change..

 

[horses mouth]

I wasn't planning on giving up...LOL..... We just have to get the other nobodies to stand together and say

we want positive change.. I am not one to post the "me too things" and I am not easily riled, but this

bottom of the withers thing was just to much to take.. Why can't the powers of the AMHA insist that the

rules be followed and follow these same rules themselves.. I don't show and never will.. to old

to start now.. but I do want to see that the people who do show are not being cheated in the ring..

I do want to see the ordinary member have the right to vote on matters important to them.. And I want

the standard left alone until something better comes along to replace it.....not just something because

somebody wants change..

Bingo

Ding, Ding, Ding

We have a WINNER!

I think an appropriate way to answer might be by asking; Why is it that they have the control to NOT follow our rules. Or; Why is it that everyone (you, me, the BOD, and the other what 9973 members) else continues to bury their head in the sand?

We keep talking of unification....................

 

[McBunz]

Ok If I have won the ****y prize, what can be done to change this?.. We need your input and your support

to get things changed in a positive manner..

We need everyones support and input... Nobody wants to see the AMHA go under.. Its growth and success

is good for us all..

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

[SIZE=8pt]Michelle, this is the type of thing (I have bolded and made red the more precise statement I refer to here in my reply) I really, REALLY have a problem with. We have been told time and time and time again that these things must all be worked out...yada, yada, yada, and that is all fine, BUT, then WHY were the issues and objections to changing the way we measure a miniature horse not also first thought out and these same steps followed before they voted that rule in? It's when things like that occur, that really set me off, wondering why some things for some people get passed through so quickly without following proper proceedure, yet for others, they hit that proverbial brick wall, and are faced with, "sorry...you didn't do this, you dnd't answer that, you never planned for this, you didn;t do that...etc., etc.". [/SIZE]

Gee Mona, I wish I could answer that! I wasn't at the last meeting to understand what happened with the voting on the measuring. I do know that ANYONE presenting a bylaw or rule change has to follow the same procedure. Now if the person presenting the change is there at ALL the meetings to make sure their intent is understood and changes can be made BEFORE being presented for a vote - the chances of it being voted on is greatly increased.

I've been at committee meetings (observing) and nice changes have come through the committee, but the person recommending wasn't there or there was enough question about it being vote-able that is was tabled.

R3 described what occurs with a vote and for those that have not attended an AMHA meeting it's not one thing you vote on - the voting can take hours literally and I've been at a convention where it took 2 days to complete.

Every organization has rules and bylaws that it must follow - familiarize yourself with those and get help from those that do know the ins/outs to get a proposal ready - it makes life easier.

 

[horses mouth]

Ok If I have won the ****y prize, what can be done to change this?.. We need your input and your support

to get things changed in a positive manner..

We need everyones support and input... Nobody wants to see the AMHA go under.. Its growth and success

is good for us all..

The last time AMHA was sued it was for 22 counts of "not following their rules". The judge told Frank Caine, the current AMHA attorney, that AMHA MUST follow it's rules. They were REAL LUCKY the plaintiff was willing to settle the case. By the way the settlement was paid by the insurance company not the association. I wonder how much we are paying for insurance now?

There has been continuity of leadership from then to now. It is obvious they either don't want to follow the rules, don't know them, or don't care.

Believe me when I tell you this (and it has been said in other words by many people here); The agendas are ruling our association. In order to effect change we need to make going to the meetings a priority.

 

[McBunz]

Wow ... That was a mouth full..Maybe that is what it will take.. and it was straight from the horses mouth..

 

[Charley]

How are y'all planning on organizing? in order to support and unify?

 

[McBunz]

When we all joined the AMHA we were handed a book. This book outlined the standard.. unique from the AMHR

in that it stated that a miniature horse was 34 inches and under at the last hair of the mane.. Those of us that joined agreed to follow this standard in horses registered AMHA. We bought horses that met the standard.

We bred horses that met the standard.. Many of us spent a lot of money to do this.. The rule book

stated that the smallest most perfect horse would the winner in a AMHA show.. Well we have been betrayed

by the very people who should be enforcing these rules.. When directors that are suppose to represent

the membership propose rule changes that change this standard that we all agreed to, something

is very wrong.. When judges are allowed to pick the largest most perfect horse, something is very wrong.

 

[Mona]

Michelle...you wrote:

Gee Mona, I wish I could answer that! I wasn't at the last meeting to understand what happened with the voting on the measuring. I do know that ANYONE presenting a bylaw or rule change has to follow the same procedure. Now if the person presenting the change is there at ALL the meetings to make sure their intent is understood and changes can be made BEFORE being presented for a vote - the chances of it being voted on is greatly increased.

I've been at committee meetings (observing) and nice changes have come through the committee, but the person recommending wasn't there or there was enough question about it being vote-able that is was tabled.

R3 described what occurs with a vote and for those that have not attended an AMHA meeting it's not one thing you vote on - the voting can take hours literally and I've been at a convention where it took 2 days to complete.

Every organization has rules and bylaws that it must follow - familiarize yourself with those and get help from those that do know the ins/outs to get a proposal ready - it makes life easier.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, maybe in a PERFECT world/organization is would be. I again have bolded and made red, what I see incorrect here.

Gee Mona, I wish I could answer that! I wasn't at the last meeting to understand what happened with the voting on the measuring. I do know that ANYONE presenting a bylaw or rule change has to follow the same procedure. So do you actually KNOW this, or merely expect it? You say that they HAVE to follow the same proceedure.

Yes, you are right...kind of. It is written in our rules and bylaws that this is the way it is supposed to be done, however, after much research, I am finding more and more often where this is not at all the case! I see where "horsesmouth" also pointed out some comments in regards to past performance of the rules being followed as they should be.

Every organization has rules and bylaws that it must follow - familiarize yourself with those and get help from those that do know the ins/outs to get a proposal ready - it makes life easier.

Oh, believe me, I am getting VERY familiar with them in recent months, and yes, proposals are in the works.

 

[horses mouth]

When we all joined the AMHA we were handed a book. This book outlined the standard.. unique from the AMHR

in that it stated that a miniature horse was 34 inches and under at the last hair of the mane.. Those of us that joined agreed to follow this standard in horses registered AMHA. We bought horses that met the standard.

We bred horses that met the standard.. Many of us spent a lot of money to do this.. The rule book

stated that the smallest most perfect horse would the winner in a AMHA show.. Well we have been betrayed

by the very people who should be enforcing these rules.. When directors that are suppose to represent

the membership propose rule changes that change this standard that we all agreed to, something

is very wrong.. When judges are allowed to pick the largest most perfect horse, something is very wrong.

Mc Bunz

Therein lies the problem. Here are some differing views:

Performance is better than half of our association. It was a VERY small segment when this standard was written. By the way it says "the breed" not "TO BREED". We are evolving (not necessarily mentally) as a breed, but we still are not a breed. If we were our horses would never be larger than our standard. Therefore we are just an association.

As far as the judging goes, remember we are paying these people for their opinions and as you can see from this forum EVERYONE has one. As long as our membership accepts those opinions (by hiring these judges) we will get what we pay for. My wife has been a carded judge for way over 10 years so I feel qualified in these statements.

Charley

Email the office to [email protected] and get 5000 or do other peolpe to do the same.

Email all of the (not just yours) directors and don't give up when they don't respond, email them again and again.

Remember the directors have lives, they are also kept out of the loop and many, MANY matters that go on in AMHA. But if they think everyone is fed up they should begin to also ask why.

Go to the June meeting in Dallas with all of us and tell them, "I'm fed up and I'm not going to take it anymore".

Short of this the only recourse would be a lawsuit and since that is a HUGE step that most would avoid, we have set the stage for this kind of behind the scenes manipulation.

 

[LisaF.]

I think that is a great idea...except with my family problems I can NOT and WILL not leave them at this time.

I am a paid member of AMHA and I HOPE in the FUTURE I will be treated like one.

Mary Lou is it ok to print off you letter?...So, we can start sending to ALL the directors?

If it is I wish you would make a top post so if people aren't reading this thread anymore they know about the letter and the great suggestion of starting to send it to the AMHA office - President and ALL directors.

 

[Charley]

Here is the email that I sent out. Sorry I don't know of 5000 other members. Just me and my husband...let's see if any others will join in.

Please try to find out if there are any answers to these questions that were submitted to AMHA President, Michael Want, officers and directors. We, as members are trying to understand what is going on and why it is going on with the bottom of the withers rule and how it is going to effect us if this rule is put in place. We especially would like to know what the committee who researched this rule change decided as to the effect that the rule would make overall. We would like to hear back about this subject.

Lois A. Simons & Joseph W. Simons

AMHA Members

“##############

To: AMHA President, Michael Want, officers and directors:

The following concerns and questions are presented involving the implementation of the newly ratified amendment to Article XI, Section 4, which will change the way an AMHA horse is measured from the last hairs of the mane to the base of the withers if implemented on January 1, 2009.

1. Did the staff review this amendment as required in the flow chart for rule change, for the Economic Impact, Computer Programming Requirements, Office Administration Requirements, and Legal/Liability Implications? Did the Board of Directors review the office staff's impact report and approve it?

2. Was proper notification given to the entire membership of this proposed amendment with clear explanation that it would change the procedure of a thirty year old rule in the way an AMHA Miniature Horse would be measured, and would change the Standard of Perfection? How was this official notification published to each member of the Association?

3. What formal training was given or will be given to the people that will be approved to measure horses at all shows?

4. What type of training or instruction will be given to the AMHA members in order for them to correctly measure their horses at the base of the withers for registration certificates?

5. It seems to be of greatest concern to most members as where to find the actual "spot" exactly where the base of the withers is located. This spot is not visible and can only be felt. There is a great variation in the determining the location of this spot, and will cause many problems and a lot of controversy between exhibitors, trainers, and the people measuring the horses. How do you intend to handle this problem?

6. Was any type of study or research done in measuring a number of horses at the base of the withers as opposed to the last hairs of the mane to determine differences in the height of the horses before the amendment was submitted for a vote? What were the findings? Did the horses measure taller or shorter?

7. Many members trying very hard to find the actual "spot" have already found that the majority of their horses measured at the base of the withers were shorter by a half an inch, and sometimes more, than measurements at the last hairs of the mane. The registration certificates on all permanently registered horses whose measurements differ from their current registration certificate will have to be corrected, as they would be making a false statement about the horse if the papers are not corrected. Will AMHA correct and issue new registration certificates to the owners of these horses at AMHA's expense?

8. What will AMHA do about horses that measured oversized at OVER 34 inches tall at the last hairs of the mane and had their papers revoked, but now will measure 34 inches tall or less at the base of the withers? Will these horses be allowed to be reinstated? Will they have to pay a reinstatement fee?

9. Knowing that a bylaw amendment has been presented to be voted on at the 2009 Annual Meeting to change the measuring point for an AMHA Miniature Horse to the top of the withers, what will AMHA do if this amendment is passed? Will any reinstatement fees paid be refunded to the owners of the horses who then have their registration revoked again?

10. Will horses that are hardshipped measuring 34 inches or less after the base of the withers bylaw is implemented be remeasured at the top of the withers should that amendment pass next year? Will their hardshipped fees be refunded, and their registration certificates be revoked, if they measure over 34 inches tall?

11. What will the impact be to the Association in their efforts to develop an International market for AMHA horses now if they are measured at the base of the withers? This was discussed at the meeting by Wayne Hipsley, AMHA facilitator, who stated that when he and the President recently spent three weeks traveling in International countries, the most important request they were given was to measure AMHA horses at the top of the withers. Will AMHA continue to spend money trying to develop an International market now?

12. What impact will the new amendment have on the integrity of the AMHA and the credibility of the registry when, because there is strong member support for using the worldwide, top-of-the-withers standard, it is very possible that the point of measurement may(again?) be changed from one point to another within the next few years? What then?

What impact will its implementation have on the acceptance of AMHA within the wider horse world/market, at a time when AMHA is stating that it is moving to become a 'breed' registry, not simply a height registry?

We believe that most AMHA members do not feel that a foundation cornerstone of their organization should be changed, unless for the most compelling of reasons. This change appears to be looking to find a way to 'just be different', or to in fact allow taller horses into the Association while maintaining a pretense that the Standard has in no way been altered.

Most importantly, will AMHA enforce the rules and bylaws of the Association and revoke papers on horses that do not meet the requirements of an AMHA horse as 34 inches tall or less?

###########

I repeat - the questions to this letter was never answered - So why is it always said to contact your directors with your concerns. They were and the QUESTIONS WERE TOTALLY IGNORED BY THE DIRECTORS AND PRESIDENT OF AMHA!!!

Oh, I did contact one Director with MY concerns and questions.. was told that they have NO ANSWERS to the questions.. Is this not a BIG ENOUGH REASON to THROW OUT the RULE that ALLOWES BIGGER HORSES INTO AMHA??? !!!

I do hope AMHA directors and others that attend the June meeting use their GIVEN powers and throw the rule out, keeping it at LAST HAIR ON MANE....

I also truly feel there was not enough RESEARCH and THOUGHT on what the Base of the Rule would do to AMHA if it becomes rule this January.

Here is what I have gathered from the letter send to ALL Directors and President of AMHA that was NOT answered to the group that presented it on behalf of the many, many members that wish the rule be rescinded...”

 

[McBunz]

"Mc Bunz"

"Therein lies the problem. Here are some differing views:

Performance is better than half of our association. It was a VERY small segment when this standard was written. By the way it says "the breed" not "TO BREED". We are evolving (not necessarily mentally) as a breed, but we still are not a breed. If we were our horses would never be larger than our standard. Therefore we are just an association."

Do you really think the new rule measurement will allow so many great perfomance horses into the AMHA

to make it worth while loosing memberships over this silly rule.. specially when so many say it makes no

difference in their horses when measured.. Like I have said before... if the AMHA want these over sized

horses so bad make a separate division for them to show under... Call them American Minature Ponies or

something, because according to the rule book they are not American Miniature Horses...

 

[LisaF.]

Oh sorry Charley...are you the one that wrote the questions?...If so, is it ok if I print them off?

I still hope Mary Lou will top post those questions. I feel they are very GOOD questions that deserve an answer.

 

[Charley]

No, I did not write it.

It is all in quotation marks in the email. It has been posted here on a public forum and addresses all the questions that we have.

 

[LisaF.]

Thank you Mary Lou...I will be printing it off and e-mailing.

If I hear anything from anyone I will let everyone know.

I hope alot of our AMHA Members will do the same.

And Horses Mouth ( I am sorry I don't know your name)....That was a great suggestion and I hope many will do this.

 

[LisaF.]

I agree Horse Mouth and Castle Rock