AMHR Judges

[LaVern]

Judging.

Here Comes Lizzy.

I always encourage prospective buyers to come and take a look at horses before buying. So sometimes they do. And away we go to the pasture. And wouldn’t you know it the first dang horse to greet them is always Good Old Lizzy. The tallest horse I have, Good Big Old Lizzy. Now, I know how tall Lizzy is. I try to explain that she has all this miniature breeding, and sometimes her offspring stay under and that she would be able to show a Nationals easily. But it does not cut it. Even the beginners are smarter than that.

So you tell me, why our judges can’t be that smart? Can’t they tell a big old honker from a miniature horse when they see them in the show ring. If it looks too big and towers over the others in the class, would that not be a strike against it.

Now, I know that the judges have to judge what is in front of them, but they can place them anyway they want and we really have only one criteria, that being size. And looking too tall and out of place should mean something.

So if some judges are head men or women, some are movement orientated, some are neck guys, why can’t some be size guys and use that knowledge to help make their decision also. Judges have to judge what the stewards have given them to judge, but they can place them any way they want, and being so much taller than others should not be a plus in a miniature horse show.

If Little Joe Blow can say, “Gee, that one looks kind of big,” Why can’t our judges?

If they can’t tell a big honk’n pony from a miniature horse I feel that there is some thing is wrong with our system of training and accepting our judges.

Oh, I must ad that I have had a lot of judges come to my place and say. I’d take that one but she is too big. So if she is too big in the pasture, why is she not too big in the showring?

If I were putting on a show. I would make it very clear to the judges that size is all we have and it must be a consideration when judging.

If it is obviously doesn’t look like a miniature horse in size and they place it as their Champion, then they are really not as good of a judge as Little Joe Blow.

Size is all we have. Renee

 

[alongman]

Well said Renee. I also want to commend you on pulling papers on horses that you feel will go over to try to be a small solution to the size problem!

More people should take your lead. From a judging perspective, it is sometimes hard to actually determine the height of an animal in the ring. I usually have a pretty good idea, but it all depends on the size of the other horses in the class. Sometimes it is misleading. I feel that the responsibility should be placed on EVERYONE (exhibitors, stewards and judges) to present animals that CLEARLY are within the height limitations.

OOOOOOOH!!!!!!! I've seen Lizzie She's a nice mare and has had some really nice babies.

 

[kaykay]

This is what I have been told by several judges on this issue

It is NOT the judges job to determine the height of a horse. If the horse is in the ring in front of them they must judge it. It is the STEWARDS job to be sure that the horses measure in the right class. The judge has to assume that the steward measured the horse and deemed it the right height. I know assuming is bad but what else can a judge do??

After pondering it I think they are right. Its not the judges fault!! It goes back to the steward letting obviously overisze horses measure in the wrong class.

 

[Leeana]

What kay said makes sense, but the judges are there to judge miniature horses correct? If its obvious that a horse is over the height limit....they should not be placed by the judge since they are there to judge miniature horses...not 40" (at last hairs..) ponies..

 

[LaVern]

Of course that is what the judges say. It relieves them of any part of the responsiblity. I say, If you want the job of being a miniature horse judge, you had better have some knowlegdge of how big a miniature horse can be.- duh- That is all we have is size.

I also agree with Adam. It is the responsibilty of all of us to try as hard as we can to be honest and I guess it starts with us breeders. I hope I never have a horse that is obviously over the B height limit out there showing. But, if I do I will be the first to protest my own horse if I can.

Now on the other hand, if there are so many that want to show the horses that will go over 38 inches or are already over, then get together and vote to change the height to what ever you want.

Size is all we have.

 

[minih]

I personally do not want a judge to place horses on if they "think" a horse may be over. It is the stewards job to measure, not the judges. Once the horse is in the class, I hope the judges place on how they feel that horse should be placed. If they start not placing horses on how tall they think they are, or how tall a horse may look at one show up against other horses in the class at the time, there will have to be a way to let that person know their horse did not place because of height, and then you should be able to prove your horse measures under. What then on the placings? Big mess. Everyone states that judges should know, but it is easy to mistake height for a variety of reasons. Just my opinion for what it's worth.

 

[LaVern]

I almost made it out to the pasture and I had a flash. Gotta share. Okay, size is what we use to determine if we have a miniature horse.

Well, does't it seem obvious that the judges should be trained in how to determine size to a degree. So, maybe when perspective judges take their test to get their cards they should have to prove somewhat that they know how tall a miniature should be. Say 10 horses , some tall some short, lined up and they have to gage their height and write it down. Then they have to go measure them with a Steward watching and see how close they come. That is all we are- a height resistry. We must have judges that consider height somewhat, in my opinion.

 

[minih]

I'm sorry but if I am kicked out of a placing in a class because a judge "thought" my horse looked over, I want to be able to prove that it is under! This is not a class for maybe 00 inches-maybe 00 inches. You are also opening the doors for judges who like the look of the taller ones and may have quite a few more over in each class. Has anyone thought this could play both ways?

 

[ClickMini]

I don't want to name the exact person, but when in a later discussion with them after a show class where they did not have a horse on their card that the other judges did, they said in their opinion the horse looked oversized and much taller than others in the group. They considered the horse to be "off-type." I thought that was an excellent way to phrase it, and I respected them very much for upholding an opinion on the matter. The opinion was not theirs alone, there was a lot of grumbling going on at that show about the particular horse.

 

[LaVern]

I have gotten the gate many times because the judge thought my horses head was ugly. That is his call. How do I prove to him that I think my horse has the prettiest head.

In my opinion if there is 10 sort of the same size horses in a class and one comes in obviously much bigger it should ring a bell in a judges head. Okay must go to work.

 

[bingo]

If you feel a horse is over then exercise your right to protest said horse. If more people protested horses they felt were over then it would help this whole problem.

We can complain about it here on LB or to our friends all we want it will not change anything.

 

[minih]

I have to disagree one more time, sorry

, but an ugly head IS a matter of opinion, height is not.

 

[Ashley]

I have a foal here that I am not registureing as Im pretty sure she will go over. After all she is almost 6 months old and already 34.25" tall...........where that came from I dont know.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I don't know a lot about the AMHR rules but I do know that it states pretty clearly in the A rules that height should be a factor. If 2 horses are pretty close in all other ways the smaller of the 2 should be chosen. I'm not always seeing that from the sidelines(the way it appears to an observer at least) but I believe if first the steward measured carefully and then the judges gave extra credit for short, oversized horses would be less of an issue. JMO

 

[minih]

This is what it says in the AMHR rulebook:

Size: The American Miniature Horse must measure

not more than 34 inches at the base of the last hair on

the mane for Under Division , and not more than 38

inches for Over Division. Since the breed objective is

the smallest possible perfect horse preference in

judging shall be given to the smallest, all other factors

being equal. In no case shall a smaller horse be placed

over a larger horse with better conformation.

It is not extra credit for being smaller, but all other factors being equal.

I went and looked up AMHA:

GENERAL IMPRESSION: A small, sound, well-balanced

horse, possessing the correct conformation characteristics

required of most breeds––refinement and femininity in the mare,

boldness and masculinity in the stallion. The general impression

should be one of symmetry, strength, agility and alertness. Since

the breed objective is the smallest possible perfect horse, preference

in judging shall be given the smaller horse, other characteristics

being approximately equal.

 

[Taylor Jo]

I think at Nationals too they need to be careful when measuring. I had my gelding and they told me 34.5 I said NO WAY, he's a permanent at 33 they KEPT insisting he was 34.5. Then finally after several tries she said, "did he just get off the trailer?" I said, "yes." she said, "well that's why." Then FINALLY they got a 33.5 on him and he got in his class. I was freaking out. I was there 1 DAY and showing in ONE DRIVING CLASS and they were going to put him OVER and he wouldn't have been able to drive in that class and so I'd had to scratch the class and No Nationals for him. Needless to say I was upset. I kept saying to them. NO, he's not that tall would you look at his permanent papers so you can tell he's NOT that height, HONESTLY. NOPE they just kept telling me he was 34.5. Then he wouldn't STAND still.... Yikes!!!!!! Anyway, it all worked out.

 

[kaykay]

Well I do understand why people do not protest. I saw one protest years ago at an AMHR show and it was not pretty. The protester won but the backlash was horrible. Then I saw one at AMHA Worlds and what was done to that protester by everyone there was just horrible. I still remember it very vividly. I have the utmost respect for anyone that does it but I absolutely understand why people do not do it.

Taylor just a hint is we never measure a horse right off the trailer. We let them settle down in the stall and eat, drink and relax. Then we take them and hand walk them so they arent measured cold.

 

[Taylor Jo]

opps I did it again.....

 

[Taylor Jo]

He'd been off the trailer a couple of hrs. I guess. BUT, he's also an uptight horse so maybe in their favor that had something to do w/ it too. It's just out of all the shows he's always measured his height and then I just got his permanent card before we went to Nationals. Anyway, sorry for interrupting the post.

Thanks for the information I'll keep that in mind for other horses. TJ

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Taylor just a hint is we never measure a horse right off the trailer. We let them settle down in the stall and eat, drink and relax. Then we take them and hand walk them so they arent measured cold.

That is an interesting little piece of information for those of us who are new to showing. I would never have thought it made any difference. Helps to explain why my colts measured quite a bit taller by the steward than I had gotten at home.We rushed in the night before our class just to have them measured, hopped them off the trailer and into the arena where all the strange horses where and had them measured. It had been my understanding that was the only time the horses were being measured in which turned out to be untrue so I could have taken them in in the morning far less stress for both of us. Live and learn. Anyway thanks kaykay fo a very useful piece of info.