AMHR National Late Entries

[Dontworrybeappy]

When I was showing Arabians, I had a trainer who had forgotten to enter my horse in a Regional show class. She hauled it to the show, had it ready and was dressed to go in before she realized he wasn't entered. She argued with show management, but they stuck to their rules. As the owner, I wasn't responsible for the error, and yes, we were all very upset, but in joining the registry and showing in it's shows, I'd agreed to abide by the rules. It would not have been fair to the other entrants who had followed the rules if they had decided to BREAK the rule to let my horse show.

This situation was COMPLETELY my trainer's fault. She did NOT check all the horse's entries when she got to the show. If she had checked those entries ANY time in the many days she was there before my horse's class, she could have gotten him into the class. (and yes, I had PAID her for my entry, so guess who kept that money? Not the show!) If I had been there and had ANY idea that this person I had trusted with my beloved horse and my money was really a scatter-brained *****, I could have followed up on my own and played by the rules. But I didn't. It was NOT the show management's fault, it was the fault of my trainer. It was NOT the registry's fault, it was the fault of my trainer.

I didn't fight the show management or the registry, and I really didn't fight the trainer, as she made me many special "deals" to make it up to me. In hindsight, I should have taken that very large hint and gotten far away from her, but that is another story.

I learned from this.... know the rules and make sure that everyone you are working with is following these rules. That way you GET to show with the rest of the people who ALSO follow the rules. Personally, I would rather believe that I'm showing with people who play by the rules, even though I do know that many people are trying to find ways around them instead. That sullies us all - those people who try to get around the rules.

Yes, the owners who trusted the trainer(s) to follow the rules lost out this year. Next year if they show they'll know to either go with a more responsible trainer, or follow up to make sure their trainer is following the rules. (and I think that your trainer sure owes you something big to make this up to you, whether you stay with that trainer or not!)

Don't like the rule? There are processes in place to change rules in the future.... do that if you feel strongly it must be changed. OTOH, it is easier to just learn from this and move on... heartbreaking as it is right now. I do feel your pain and I'm sorry for your situation.

 

[streaker]

All I have to say is that I feel sorry for all the people that trusted others and there entries did not go threw... I am not asking AMHR to change rules for these people but I would expect the fancy to show Empathy to these individuals. What ever your opinion might be there are innocent people that did not try to get special treatment that worked hard to get there horses qualified and the only error was trusting someone else to mail in there entries after they have sent all the info in time. If people cannot see this then I am sorry it's sad. Frank

 

[fortheloveofminis]

All I have to say is that I feel sorry for all the people that trusted others and there entries did not go threw... I am not asking AMHR to change rules for these people but I would expect the fancy to show Empathy to these individuals. What ever your opinion might be there are innocent people that did not try to get special treatment that worked hard to get there horses qualified and the only error was trusting someone else to mail in there entries after they have sent all the info in time. If people cannot see this then I am sorry it's sad. Frank

I completely agree with you, no better way to say it. It is such an unfortunate situation, it's really sad. I can't imagine how I would feel.

 

[dreamlandnh]

nicely stated Frank!

 

[Jean_B]

I spoke directly with one of the parties that was impacted by this.

They DID do due-diligence in trying to get their entries in on time. This was a large group that stalls together so they rounded up all the entries so that they could be sent in together. The entries WERE taken to the post office on the date that they had to be postmarked - BUT it was the POST OFFICE that screwed these people out of the opportunity to show because their machine was not working on that particular day - and the POST OFFICE held the envelope and it was the POST OFFICE that post-marked it the following day when they then sent it in. It was NOT the fault of ANY of the exhibitors. They have EVIDENCE to the fact that they brought it to the POST OFFICE on time but because the POST OFFICE was out of order, all these people are being denied the opportunity to show.

Even with evidence that they did everything RIGHT - they are being denied the opportunity to show THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN.

I am not advocating that if they are post-marked a week late that they be allowed to show, but these people who got head-butted by the Post Office are getting the short end of the stick. Just sayin'.

 

[RayVik]

Without questioning the details as facts I would say that given those circumstances as posted I would certainly hope the situation was at least given consideration and decided based on more then just someone looking at the postmark and sending it back as has also been posted.

It would be so sad to think we as a organization have become so rigid with our rules as to surpass and reject any consideration of reasonable or practical review of their application given all possible circumstances.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

The registry definitively needs to do something different. I think this situation was just so difficult considering it was multiple entries that were late, not just 1. I think they should put something on the table at Convention this year to vote on.

Despite everything that's happened it'll still be a great show with wonderful competition and anyone who says anything else is kidding themselves.

 

[SampleMM]

I do not show AMHR but will be doing so next year. What I can't wrap my head around is why AMHR doesn't offer admittance with a late fee. There are many people, myself included who do everything at the last minute. I would never even consider entering my horse in the middle of summer to an expensive show such as Nationals unless I thought my horse would be right up there at the top. Now, how would I know that until the end of the show season? I always make my decision on World's at the very end of the show season.

 

[ruffian]

Nationals is a HUGE show - well over 1,000 horses, with several thousand (guesstimate) entries. This is NOT something that can be thrown together at the last minute. I've been a show manager at the local level, and HATED the folks that sent their entries in at the last minute or showed up at the show, entries in hand. The cut off date is not an arbitrary date set to see who can miss it. It's set to allow the people in the office to enter all the horses into the computer. To let the grounds know how many stalls they need. How much bedding needs to be on hand. Figure out the stalling - who goes where etc. This is not something that can be done in a day or two. Estimating 1,000 entries, and approximately 30 days to get them entered, that works out to 40 entries per day. And that's just doing entries, no other registry work or stalling, or any of that.

This is not the Registry's fault. The fact that one of the folks put their entry into the post office but the post office had an issue is moot. Why wait until the last day?

I hope everybody has safe travels to and from Nationals, and has a wonderful time. It's an incredible event, and I applaud the registry for all the hard work they do to make this possible for the rest of us.

 

[bluerogue]

I feel horribly for the people whose entries were denied this year. I do think the people that the post office screwed over should be allowed to show, as long as they have proof from the post office that their entry was on time, and it was the post offices mistake. In that case, the post office screwed up... not the entrants. I feel especially horrible for those who were screwed by their trainer. I can't even imagine what they must feel. I'd be beyond peeved about that.

Regarding a rule change, which is the only way to theoretically fix this for the future... what about submitting a rule change for this rule that will allow a "penalty period"? A period of say two weeks or something after the close of entries, that if you entry is postmarked in the period you will be accrued a penalty, but accepted. After the penalty period has passed, no additional entries will be allowed. It doesn't have to be two weeks, that's just what popped into my head. It could be 2 days, or something, just long enough to allow for post offices flops and whatnot. That way, cases such as have been mentioned, where the postmark was wrong, or a day or two late will still show, but will be penalized for being late.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

Nationals is a HUGE show - well over 1,000 horses, with several thousand (guesstimate) entries. This is NOT something that can be thrown together at the last minute. I've been a show manager at the local level, and HATED the folks that sent their entries in at the last minute or showed up at the show, entries in hand. The cut off date is not an arbitrary date set to see who can miss it. It's set to allow the people in the office to enter all the horses into the computer. To let the grounds know how many stalls they need. How much bedding needs to be on hand. Figure out the stalling - who goes where etc. This is not something that can be done in a day or two. Estimating 1,000 entries, and approximately 30 days to get them entered, that works out to 40 entries per day. And that's just doing entries, no other registry work or stalling, or any of that.

This is not the Registry's fault. The fact that one of the folks put their entry into the post office but the post office had an issue is moot. Why wait until the last day?

I hope everybody has safe travels to and from Nationals, and has a wonderful time. It's an incredible event, and I applaud the registry for all the hard work they do to make this possible for the rest of us.

If that's true, then why does the AMHR allow post entries? Most exhibitors enter a horse just once prior to the deadline and then make the rest of the entries at the show. If your argument were correct then 100% of the entries should be made by the deadline.

Plus, its the Show Manager that makes the deadline, but the ASPC/AMHR Office that processes the entries. If the problem is the Office work (and I do appreciate there needs to be some incentive to have most entries in early enough) then why would the Show Manager set the deadline instead of the Office?

Finally, whether or not its the Post Office's fault I don't is the question, the question is; whether or not it was reasonable for an individual to expect a Government body to perform there promised duties on time? If the Government fails and admits to the failure, then why would the individual be at fault? I don't think anyone is at fault, rather crap happens and should an individual be punished for something happening beyond their control?

Dr. Taylor

 

[Minimor]

The difficult part of processing entries is entering the info in the first place...putting in the horse's name, owner name, assigning a number, figuring out stall assignments. Once it is all in the system (and I am assuming that the people doing Natuonals entries use a computer) then it is easy to add classes for those entered horses. I imagine that is why horses must be entered in advance but classes can be added later.

 

[RayVik]

I have to say I must be rhe luckiest person on earth as my life is geared toward trust in many things involving dependency upon both the system and individuals.

When I pay my bills I put them in the mailbox

When I buy food I trust the store

When I am sick I trust my doctor

When I drive I trust the road signs

I cannot imagine how my life would be driving to every place I owe to pay my bills

Or

Having a lab test every bit of food before I eat

Or

Getting second or third or forth opinions when I needed stiches

Or

Trying to back my car out of my drive to do any of the above knowing that no matter what happens I might of or could of or would of or SHOULD of.....would drive me insane

But my luckiest part is I have been fortunate that the people around me could be trusted to support and help and even defend me when malady has occured

When my horses have gotten out of their stall at shows people helped catch them not set back and say I should of tied and chained and welded my door shut

When I had a auto accident people stopped and rendered aid and didn't just drive by screaming you should of left I min earlier

When I had the flu people helped me feed and care for my animals rather the just call and say " you should of gotten a flu shot

call me lazy or crazy or just lucky but know and believe that I don't take any of the compassion or empathy or support and most of all help I have gotten for granted nor will I loose sight of my trust in others to offer any and all of the above

when I find myself on the short side of a situation

 

[Jean_B]

I have to say I must be rhe luckiest person on earth as my life is geared toward trust in many things involving dependency upon both the system and individuals.

When I pay my bills I put them in the mailbox

When I buy food I trust the store

When I am sick I trust my doctor

When I drive I trust the road signs

I cannot imagine how my life would be driving to every place I owe to pay my bills

Or

Having a lab test every bit of food before I eat

Or

Getting second or third or forth opinions when I needed stiches

Or

Trying to back my car out of my drive to do any of the above knowing that no matter what happens I might of or could of or would of or SHOULD of.....would drive me insane

But my luckiest part is I have been fortunate that the people around me could be trusted to support and help and even defend me when malady has occured

When my horses have gotten out of their stall at shows people helped catch them not set back and say I should of tied and chained and welded my door shut

When I had a auto accident people stopped and rendered aid and didn't just drive by screaming you should of left I min earlier

When I had the flu people helped me feed and care for my animals rather the just call and say " you should of gotten a flu shot

call me lazy or crazy or just lucky but know and believe that I don't take any of the compassion or empathy or support and most of all help I have gotten for granted nor will I loose sight of my trust in others to offer any and all of the above

when I find myself on the short side of a situation

VERY VERY well stated!!

 

[mdegner]

It "ain't over till its over"......I guess it "ain't" over yet.....agree (again) with Dr Taylor and RayVick..... I am waiting for a hero here....can't some one step up and make this right?

And, this is the first time EVER where we have a horse going to nationals that is straight off the farm...our breeding all the way....lest someone think I don't have some skin in the game.

Let them show, spank them with a fine, learn from this and be a better org because of it....come on, someone have some courage and do the right thing.....

 

[gumby]

OK some people may not like what I am going to say here, but I cannot hold back on this and I never post on these boards..

I cannot believe an association this size is so stingent and hard on this deadline and is relying on a post mark stamp from a post office. What if the post mark was correct and the entries took longer than ususal to get to the office. Are they going to have time to process these entries? I do not believe this is all about being able to process the entries.

Is this association so strong it can afford the loss of entrants, money and the trust of these members that have supported it for so long. In all the time this has been discussed and fought over. There was plenty of time to process these entries and tack on a big enough fine, that if they were serious about showing it would not have mattered to them and there could have been money made here for something else. Too bad so much energy has been spent to get these entrants not to show instead of being possitive and figuring out how to make it work for all. Yeah there were others that got there entries in on time, good for all that did. I would hope that any one truely interested in showing would want as many horses there as possible to show against. God forbid if any of the decision maker`s or the powers that be for this out come should break a rule at some point.

I have to agree with mdegner, as Dr Phil would say, Every situation deserves a hero. I really wish everyone would have worked for a WIN WIN situation here.

 

[Minimor]

I should have said this in my earlier post...

The entry date is set by Show Management but Show Management does so in cooperation with the Office and the Show Committee. 

The office processes the entries but so does Show Management.  The Office makes copies of the entries, processes the payment, and sends the original entries on to Show Management to put into their system.

 

[Minimor]

Right in the Nationals premium book it notes that you can cancel your entry with a $50 penalty until August 15th.  So not knowing if your horse is or isn't going to be at that perfect show stage isn't an excuse to wait until last minute to enter - up until August 15th you could have still backed out with a small penalty. 

You know I feel sorry for the decision makers in this registry. For years everyone has wanted the rule book followed and now suddenly when we have a Board that is treating it as their bible we have everyone fussing that exceptions should be made for this, that or the other.  We can't have it both ways. 

Some things to think about:  Next year if there is a penalty with another drop dead entry date what happens when someone has "intent" to mail on that final drop dead entry date and pay all the penalties but has something go wrong and it is postmarked late?  Wouldn't that put the AMHR in the same pickle they were in this year?  Logistically is it even possible to accept entries right up until the start of the show?  Are the AMHR Committee and the members that vote at Convention going to be willing to remove the rule that requires every horse be listed in the show program?  What about late entries for payback classes like the Amateur Incentives?  What about Youth entries?  What happens when Youth entries must be in by the deadline but the trainer decides to pay the price and mail after the deadline?  Can all the paperwork be done for Youth High Point awards if the Youth aren't required to pre-enter?  What about Futurity entries?  Any proposal to change this rule is going to need to answer all these questions and probably many more.  

The no late entry rule isn't a rule AMHR pulled out of thin air, it dates back 15 to 20 years and was put in place by the AMHR Committee.  I'm sure they had many valid reasons for implementing it and I'm sure they have had valid reasons for not changing it.  I'm also sure that if the rule remains the same that it will be a very, very long time before an entry comes in with a late postmark again. 

I do think the root of the problem is that Show Management (NOT the AMHR) requires entries to go in together in order to be stalled together.  I feel another system for allowing people to stall together needs to be found so that each individual entrant is responsible for their own entries and does not need to trust in someone else to get their entries postmarked in time. 

 

[minimomNC]

I would bet the reason for implementing a dead line was they didn't use computer systems the same way if at all. Since there seems to have never been an issue like this in 15 - 20 years, no one thought about updating it, but with computer systems today, there is no reason to not have at least a 5 day grace period. Not two weeks, not a month, but 5 days with a penalty. For the amount of time it has taken to make the decision to not let these 165 horses show, and lose almost $50,000, they could have been in the system with a penalty. It would have been done before Aug 15 and the show would have gone on like every other year.

As for postmark, I would even bet that the entries mailed with the July 26th postmark got to the office before some of the entries mailed on July 24th or 25th. Sometimes thats how the postal service works.

 

[RayVik]

Short and quick

If we only need people to enforce rules our country would only need police no judges or courts or governing body or any other group to determine fairness or validity

When your stopped and you don't have your insurance card because it was delayed by the post office you go directly to jail where you remain for 1 year because the law says you must have proof of insurance when operating a motor vehicle. Thats the law no excuses exceptions or mercy

Been a law a long time and was made for good reason so the only question you get asked is do you want the top bunk or the bottom bunk

That's sounds like what many here are trying to suggest about our rules

I expect my directors and leadership to stand in front of the rules not hide behind them...they are the ONLY ones that can make them enforce them or change them