AMHR National Late Entries

[ruffian]

Yes Ray - our system of government is based on the understanding that people will follow the rules. If you don't follow the rules, there are penalties. In this case, some folks don't get to attend.

If , as some have suggested, a "grace period" is allowed, what happens when someone misses the grace period??

The law states that if you don't have proof of insurance you pay a fine, if You don't have insurance, you can go to jail or face a fine, depending on the judge. IMO the "judge" aka Show Committee has made their decision. AMHR rules state if you miss the deadline, you don't get to show. Doesn't say possibly not be able to show. Or probably won't be able to show. It's very very unfortunate for these folks. I feel very badly for them and their clients. But the clients need to address this with the people responsible --- those who didn't get the envelope in the mail in time.

 

[Minimor]

For the amount of time it has taken to make the decision to not let these 165 horses show...

thing is, the only place it has taken so long to decide anything is here on LB! LOL. The actual decision to not allow the entries ( in accordance with the rules) was made very promptly.

 

[RayVik]

I do agree with you in part the point I was trying to make is the absolute application of no entries passed the deadline when some of those whom were late were not because of total intent to violate as would be the case of a post office error so to apply the rule as written without any application of logic or reasonable acceptance that there exist no extenuating circumstances by which some recourse exist does strike me as exceeding the bonds and principles of our society as I attempted to point out by my example.

If we are going to use the USPS as our defining standard the we must also accept any and all of its shortcomings and as such when proven to be their error then we must accept it as such I simply cannot understand or believe we would even considered otherwise

For gods sake we have degrees and even justification for crime from jaywalking to murder

 

[Minimor]

Honestly, here if you don't have a drivers license then you are not to drive. If you don't have a license because it is held up in the mail and you drive anyway and get stopped by a cop/-you are going to get charged with driving without a license. It isn't an excuse to say the mail is at fault--bottom line is you don't have your license in your possession and you should not be driving. This postmark by a certain date rule isn't so different from that.

 

[Jean_B]

Well, in the US - if you don't have your license on you - you do have a certain period of time in which to produce evidence of it (I believe it is 36 hours). Haven't you ever forgotten your wallet and thank goodness you didn't get pulled over???

But that is beside the point. Some (not all) of those being denied entry to the show are due to NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. They DID get it to the Post Office on time. For PETE'S SAKE....there is EVIDENCE that they were there on time. This is what galls me. It's a knee jerk reaction and TOTALLY UNREALISTIC reaction to all the years where the rules weren't being enforced.

I'm trying hard not to make my response "personal" but sometimes I wonder....if someone's spine is so rigid....won't it snap in two if bent a little? Just sayin'.

 

[Mona]

It has been stated repeatedly here that there is evidence that it was at the post office on time. Just exactly what is that evidence? (not that it is going to matter, but I am curious to know) Also was the post office open at the time it was brought there, or maybe it had to wait until the next business day to be postmarked if brought after business hours at that location? Or was the postage date a postage meter that some people have at home or in their office, or an actual post office acceptance stamp date? All just things that have entered my mind and had me curious about, whhile reading through this long topic.

 

[Minimor]

Whatever Jean, this whole topic is so pointless, it is a do e deal, the decision has been made (and with legal counsel's opinion I would bet) and it doesn't really matter what any of us think. Some think it was right some think it was wrong, but now it comes down to it is what it is and someone can make up a rule change proposal and see if it can go through.

And speaking personally, no I have never forgotten my wallet. I also pay my credit card in good time because I know they won't care if it is my fault or the

Mail system that is at fault...if it is late it is late and I'll pay interest that I didn't need to pay. If I try to pay my bills by telephone banking at 9 pm and the system is down I am mad at myself for not paying it at 9 am instead so I could have called customer service while they were open. If I'm SOL at 9 pm it is really my fault, not the banks Telepay system's fault.

 

[fortheloveofminis]

Jean_B I completely agree with you, especially since there was evidence that some had actually turned their entries in on time! As to why people are so rigid about this topic is beyond me, this is not a government operation this is a sport that many try to get involved in for FUN. Also why not allow people to enter and pay for their entries and stalls online? Can't the registry figure out a system to allow online entries? Would not only make entering the show easier, but it would be an easier way for the registry to collect entry fees more effectively (more money!). You could then have the option to enter your classes at home or send them by mail. This is the largest horse show in the U.S., you would think they would not only have a grace period but have a more effective way to enter.

 

[disneyhorse]

I don't think everyone has all the facts, so we are arguing on speculation.

I thought this was about one trainer... One trainer has 165 horses on his show string with an entry fee of $50,000? Or 165 horse owners went to the same post office that was somehow "broken"?

There is information and gossip here. And people are polarizing into a "if you believe rules are rules, then you have no compassion for anyone whatsoever.". Geez.

How can we all be the jury on a case we aren't sitting on? In the end, the registry is making the decision based on all the facts.

 

[RayVik]

Not sure it's pointless to discuss. As I posted we must deal with this rule for 3 more years by our rule for rule change and this certainly establishes we are rigidly following rules without exception for now .... sort of a paradox it would seem

Holly was correct in another post and I so agree that changing this or any rule would or could effect other rules and that opens a whole new can of worms because if someone summits one rule change and another is in conflict or overlooked and it goes thru the process and passes we are stuck with the conflict for at least a year because we have now choosen to say a rule is a rule as written and thus to change a rule has its own set of rules

And as our bod has no reason and it seems unwilling at least in this case to vary from the standard of following rules as written without exception here were are

Of course if we are going to pick and choose which rules to apply as written then perhaps we should shift our focus to a rule for the picking and choosing of rules but then if we look we see we already have a rule that places that in the hands of our leadership and looking toward their threshold for invoking that power we see that thousands of $$$ and dozens of members and defacto standards of our society like post office error are not acceptable reasons for their establishing exception of a rule. Certainly they set the tone for following the principles of our organization ... Not in a good or bad way just an important understanding

In trying to find a positive in all this ....

I personally believe this issue is healthy for our organization as membership is a privilege and not a right. This topic has in many ways fostered a healthy debate which has brought forth the diversity of additudes that exist regarding how our organization functions. It has served to bring to the surface for examination philosophies and ideas that allows us to be as we are by their application. I believe it sometimes is a good thing to get such insight as it can redefine the direction and future of where we are going or remind us of where we have been and makes us who we are

Without question we all have and love our animals and seek to maximize our enjoyment of them unfortunately we as humans must have rules to help us along with that and as such rules sometimes seem to either allow someone to get the most OR no one gets more then the other.... At least when playing together

JMHO

 

[mdegner]

Jean_B I completely agree with you, especially since there was evidence that some had actually turned their entries in on time! As to why people are so rigid about this topic is beyond me, this is not a government operation this is a sport that many try to get involved in for FUN. Also why not allow people to enter and pay for their entries and stalls online? Can't the registry figure out a system to allow online entries? Would not only make entering the show easier, but it would be an easier way for the registry to collect entry fees more effectively (more money!). You could then have the option to enter your classes at home or send them by mail. This is the largest horse show in the U.S., you would think they would not only have a grace period but have a more effective way to enter.

I so agree with you. It drives me nuts that this organization--and AMHA for that matter--is still so paper-based, with the exception of the website and the on-line tracking of show records. And, with the show qualification forms, they just added more paper. A good RDBMS, a forms and workflow software and a user friendly front end for query would do the trick. I realize there is cost here but whats the cost of all that paper in terms of man-power entering the same data repeatedly, accuracy of data, etc. Our local club webmaster set up our show forms--and others that are submitted to her--so we can enter the data on line and then print them (thanks Kelly!!). Automated systems are not without their bugaboos--unplanned downtime,etc but they can be worked through and improved. Join the 21st century is my rally cry....JMHO

 

[Jill]

As far as I understand it, the situation has been resolved.

Is this year different? Every year people miss the deadline... I think the difference this year is that one or more of the people involved decided to take the plight to FaceBook after their late entries were returned...

Sure sounds like a good idea to take the steps neccessary to allow for a grace period and late fee going forward, but this year, I think, has been resolved in accordance with the long in place rules.

I agree that some have tried to poloarize this and would like to have us all beleive that those who feel "rules are rules" are not sorry for the people who will be unable to show their horses. I've not talked to anyone one on one who doesn't feel a lot of sympathy for those involved.

Additionally, there was a poll here on LB that closed once it seemed like the issue was resolved when it comes to the registry and the people with the late entries. It was about 2/3 who felt "NO" they should not be able to show.

 

[maestoso]

I am one who feels they should not be able to show. However, a poll on LB is not an accurate representation of how AMHR as a registry feels, just as the members and posters here are not(or even close to) an accurate representation of the members of AMHR. Several here are members, yes, but there are even more members and exhibitors in AMHR who do not post here. In addition, many people who responded to the poll are likely not even members and/or are not involved in showing. It's very much like the phone surveys for various services. Angry customers are much more likely to respond than satisfied ones, so the data is not credible. Polls here are fun for the people doing them, but it ends there. They, like everything else on this forum, should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Jill]

... a poll on LB is not an accurate representation of how AMHR as a registry feels...

Well, again, from what I have heard, in the eyes of AMHR (which is what matters at the end of the day), this is a "done deal".

Below is a link to the (now closed) poll I referenced. It is an accurate measurement of how people here voted over a period of several days.

It seems to me a poll that concisely reflects the input of nearly 100 people is worth at least as much as a discussion thread that revolves around the repeated input of a handful of members.

http://www.miniature...howtopic=130295

 

[RayVik]

Jill

You are so correct but the unfortunate reality in far too many organizations and for that matter societies are governed by the decisions and or often times activism of a majority of a minority of its population by way of voting or not as the case may be

Again

JMHO

 

[LaVern]

This is a little off topic, and all in the past. A few years ago we had a National Slush Fund Account. I think it was around 60,000. Some very smart people were thinking ahead.

 

[LindaL]

Right in the Nationals premium book it notes that you can cancel your entry with a $50 penalty until August 15th. So not knowing if your horse is or isn't going to be at that perfect show stage isn't an excuse to wait until last minute to enter - up until August 15th you could have still backed out with a small penalty.

You know I feel sorry for the decision makers in this registry. For years everyone has wanted the rule book followed and now suddenly when we have a Board that is treating it as their bible we have everyone fussing that exceptions should be made for this, that or the other. We can't have it both ways.

Some things to think about: Next year if there is a penalty with another drop dead entry date what happens when someone has "intent" to mail on that final drop dead entry date and pay all the penalties but has something go wrong and it is postmarked late? Wouldn't that put the AMHR in the same pickle they were in this year? Logistically is it even possible to accept entries right up until the start of the show? Are the AMHR Committee and the members that vote at Convention going to be willing to remove the rule that requires every horse be listed in the show program? What about late entries for payback classes like the Amateur Incentives? What about Youth entries? What happens when Youth entries must be in by the deadline but the trainer decides to pay the price and mail after the deadline? Can all the paperwork be done for Youth High Point awards if the Youth aren't required to pre-enter? What about Futurity entries? Any proposal to change this rule is going to need to answer all these questions and probably many more.

The no late entry rule isn't a rule AMHR pulled out of thin air, it dates back 15 to 20 years and was put in place by the AMHR Committee. I'm sure they had many valid reasons for implementing it and I'm sure they have had valid reasons for not changing it. I'm also sure that if the rule remains the same that it will be a very, very long time before an entry comes in with a late postmark again.

I do think the root of the problem is that Show Management (NOT the AMHR) requires entries to go in together in order to be stalled together. I feel another system for allowing people to stall together needs to be found so that each individual entrant is responsible for their own entries and does not need to trust in someone else to get their entries postmarked in time.

100% agreed!

 

[LindaL]

Those who "win" will just never really know.....as proven here.....there are "long term memories" that just don't forget. 2012 will be remembered in the same way as 2008, as will the "wins".

I really do not think people should think in that way....the "what ifs"....Because, let's say "the horse to beat" got sick or injured right before Nationals and could not show....are you going to "what if" then too?? You can not think in those terms...when I go to a show, I go to show against the horses that ARE there...not horses that "should have but are not" there. Competition is the competition you have at that moment.

Not the same situation, but last year at Nationals, my horse was put into the WRONG class...and because it was a height class, he didn't place as well as I think he would have if he had been in the right height class....But, there is nothing I could do about it now, so I have to just let it go...It is what it is.

What if's are not how we should go about things...and definitely not a reason to let people "break the rules"....JMO

 

[Jill]

Those who "win" will just never really know.....as proven here.....there are "long term memories" that just don't forget. 2012 will be remembered in the same way as 2008, as will the "wins".

I hope those with horses who "win" this year know that they WON.

Really now... does the word win need sarcastic quotations for the 2012 AMHR National Show??? I do not like what I see afoot, and that is the attempted cheapening of this year's accomplishments before they have even occurreded.

It is a shame that everyone who planned to be there this year cannot be there to show their horses, but the time to have it all taken care of was gone as of July 26. Every single person who was negatively impacted because their entries arrived late can surely identify something they could have done to make sure the entries were received before the deadline. Now we can only move on and take steps (either personally or at the registry level) to be sure the situation doesn't happen to us in the future.

Personally, I would be as proud of any National win for a horse this year as I ever have been -- and that is very proud!

 

[happy appy]

I hope those with horses who "win" this year know that they WON.

A statement like that seems to imply that all the good horses were the ones that didn't get in their entries on time. I don't think that's the case at all.