AMHR Nationals Poll

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Kay I do hear what you are saying but I think the green horse /driver issue is one that cant be solved in any way by "qualifying"

At those shows in surrounding states here anyway they dont have very large driving classes at all 5 is a big one and I have seen several with less ... so a green horse or driver or even a slightly more experienced horse in a class with 3 or 4 or even stretch it and say 8 - well that cant compare a horse or driver for a class with 20+ it is whole different ballgame. even a more experienced driver in time can be overwhelmed with large classes and finding a safe spot and all of that stuff not to mention ring ettiquite

however I can see the entering in a class at the shows you go to if you intend to enter it at Nationals

however I am not sure that would make much of a difference in class sizes and amount of horses

 

[kaykay]

thanks lisa

im not positive it would work but i do think it would cut down on some of the entries entered just because they can. Then again i definately could be wrong LOL. People who are really serious about getting a horse ready for nationals would most definately be showing it in those classes at the local level. The less serious people would probably just limit their national entires if they had to qualify for every class.

Everyone has to start somewhere and learn and thats exactly where i am at. But would i put a horse in a driving class at nationals?? No way. Because I know my limits. The better place to get that experience is definately at the local level. Okay everyone watch out cus connie ballard is going to teach me to drive. Scarey i know

 

[Dreamweaver]

As a person who has entered green driving horses every year at Nationals for several years in a row, I will tell you why.

I put a lot of time on my driving horses. I will not show one in a class until I think it is safe and ready to be in that class. Because of that, I do not often get to driving them at the local shows because I feel that they were not ready. If they were ready by Nationals, They would be shown, if not, they wouldn't be. I have never had a problem with this, nor have my horses. I have however, seen very seasoned horses blow up. So it is not fair to say that it is unsafe to enter a green horse in a National class just because it is green.

As for making it harder to qualify. I really don't understand why you want it to be done. Several have said it is safety issue. I drove in a lot of class, I saw a lot of class and I did not see one "blow-up" or anyone get hurt in a driving or jumping class. I love to be entered in a class that has tons of horses in it and place, it's an awesome feeling!

I can say that if you start requiring a certain number of points earned in each class to get to Nationals. You will have problems with how to get those points in many many of the classes offered at Nationals. There is just not always enough horses entered at a local level to do this. People in different parts of the country have much larger shows than others. Just take a look at home many HOF horses come from clustered areas. The are just more numbers and entries in different parts of the country and by requiring "points" in each class, some people will not be able to quaify.

Also, Who is going to verify that say 1700 horses actually entered say 4 to 10 classes each and can now show in those classes at Nationals. I sure don't want to!

I think Nationals is great just the way it is. I love some of the changes that they made in the schedule this year. I thought the whole thing went very smoothly. My girls were up very late on the youth driving night and they loved every minute of it!

The only thing I would like to see change is the judge situation. I think that 8:30 am to say 12:00 midnight is too long to be judging day after day. I feel like it would be in the best interest of everyone to hire six judges and rotate through the whole show. Not just three for youth/ammy and three for open. Personally, I would value a judges opinion late at night much more if they weren't standing there, looking so tired that I am not sure if they even saw my horse or not. That, however is just my opinion.

 

[minicount]

Ok I look at it this way. Horse shows in say Halter all year, gets to Nationals and says what the heck lets do liberty and costume while were here. That's two extra entries that go towards making the show not only break even but MAKE MONEY.

Truthfully AMHA shows are not plentyful around here and the classes are usually rather small so qualifing off them would be hard. Hence they are a turn off to me. AMHR's biggest catch/lure has always been a relaxed/family atmosphere. In other words if it aint' broke put down the wrench.

 

[DebiM]

Very good response, Kay! Boy, I've sat on my hands a lot over the last week or two on some of these crazy threads. But thankfully there have been some great responses that I totally agree with & Kay's is one of them!

I dont think you guys are really reading my post.  Everyone that said they dont like the idea also said they DO show their horses in the classes they put them in Nationals.  So this wouldnt affect you!! Lisa if your daughter shows liberty in local shows then SHE wouldnt be affected!!
And YES i do know people that never show in the classes all year but then enter them at nationals.  It most certainly does happen. 

Im getting really tired of this amha vs amhr.  This post had nothing to do with that but like previous threads its trying to be turned into that.  Enough already!!! I like and am a member of BOTH AMHA AND AMHR.  There are great things and not so great things about both registries. 

I have not entered a horse in amhr nationals but i am determined to enter one in 2006.  I am not lazy and have no problem working my butt off for a horse show that has nothign to do with this. 

For the driving classes there is certainly a safety issue.  I have heard of beginning drivers driving green horses at the national show.  Why would someoen do that? because they can. 

I think alot of people here on the forum are really grouchy this week

Lets all lighten up a bit.

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[Ashley]

THIS IS AMHR YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT NOT AMHA. KEEP AMHA AMHA AND LEAVE AMHR ALONE. ANYONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO TO NATIONALS AND COMPETE THATS WHAT MAKES IT SO SPECIAL! aNYONE WHO GOES THINKS THEY HAVE A SHOT. NO ONE IS GOING TO SPEND THAT KIND OF MONEY OR TAKE THAT MUCH TIME IF THEY DON'T THINK THEY HAVE A CHANCE.

I agree. IF I ever go to nationals again, I do have 2 horses I would love to show in liberty and I do feel they have a good shot at it. HOwever our shows here that I would go to, dont have liberty.

NOt ever class is offered at every show.

I agree leave them alone. MOst people are not gonna spend huge amounts of money on something they dont stand a chance in.

And again there are people that show for the fun of it, and nationals is fun for some. Why is everybody trying to turn showing in to politics and the fun is gone.

 

[Jill]

I don't think it should be harder to qualify and I think most of us have horses we could qualify if we had to. It's too bad that some people enter horses in classes where they probably can't be competetive but probably everyone learns as they go and gets better and better at evaluating their horses as time goes on.

Maybe for some of the long performance classes (like halter obstacle, obstacle driving, etc.), there could be a pre-qual at the Nationals where you must demonstrate to a steward that your horse is able to do the required things like side pass, 360 pivot, etc. just quickly and not over obstacles (?).

I like that everyone has a chance to show at the Nationals (after they've already met the basic requirement) and wouldn't feel very good about it being taken away from people who maybe don't get the chance to show in all "their" events at the regular shows.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I think those who say lets make it harder are the ones that is able to show all the time. Those who say lets not make it harder are the ones who doesn't show as much or has alot of horses to qualify for and possibly in the same classes as there other horses.

Can I go to shows and quailfy yes. Should they make it harder no. Nationals has just become very competiteve and any placing you get you defintelly erned it. Now if Tulsa starts running out of stall places then AMHR might need to think of something lol.

One thing I really think that needs to be changed and it will probably never solve the problem is Liberty. They seemed to have solved the problem by having liberty late at night and having to stay up to early in the morning to watch it. BUT, after watching the first liberty class and than having to watch B libery is just too much on those judges IMO. How in the world do they pay attention to 100+ horses.

 

[kaykay]

Okay the biggest complaints i heard from amhr nationals this year was that the judges did not take the time to look at every horse. number two that its turning into a trainers show. As Dana says above the judges are WORN OUT. and as jms says how can a judge possibly really judge 90-100 horses in jumper or liberty??? Theres no way!! And are all 90 horses national quality jumpers or hunters?? And did all these new trainers come because it was so easy to qualify?

I do think by making some of these people really think about what they enter it will bring the class sizes down just a bit. Then the judges can judge every horse and they wont be worn out and judging half the night.

I absolutely agree that anyone placing in nationals earned it. No doubt there. This has nothing to do with that.

If we dont make it just a little bit harder to qualify what happens in the next five years?? Is amhr going to run 24/7 to get all the horses judged?? Is the show going to be lengthend to accomodate all the entries??

Also by saying you have to show your horse locally for national entries you get more entries and showing locally. I know alot of shows that are really hurting for entries. If they dont get more they will not be able to keep the local shows going. Then we will have even less then we do now.

Its just something to think about.

 

[Ashley]

Again, not everbody can show alot like some people.

Like me, I do love to show but im lucky if I can make 2 sanction shows a year to qualify. I work 5-6 days a week all summer, and its not that easy to get time off nor do I really get that much time off to begin with.

What makes a national quality Jumper????? or HUnter????? My opinon, hunter is another judges opinion just like color. Jumper, if you horse can clear and run fast you have national quality.

Personlly dont get why people want to keep pushing the little man out of everything.

If the shows are not get the participants then I think the show needs to look at why. I know our club show was down this year, but I think the gas prices and that it was close to nationals had alot to do with it. However it was still one of the top people shows, only after Iowa and the Area National shows.

The judges not takeing time to look at ever horse in my opinion is bull. For one, as much as they get paid then should. For two, you can get a pretty good idea when the horses comes in where it would fall in the line up. If it isnt in there opinion gonna fall in the top ten, sure they are not gonna look at it much.

 

[Annetta]

Well, I'm as "little man" as they come, & I voted "yes" to making it harder to qualify for AMHR Nationals.

There is just me to show whatevr horses I want to show/qualify; there are only 2 local qualifying shows for me, with a 3rd in Minot which is still close enough--for more than that I have to drive 10 hours or more to get to the next nearest R show. I don't have money to throw away, I don't have a trainer....

In spite of all that, I completely agree with kaykay.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Hmmm I will say again.. how is to decide if your horse that placed in hunter in a small class at local is really a national quality hunter horse? I am not honestly seeing how one equals the other when in all reality not every local area has the same competition as a National show anyway?

I think bottom line is this.. the judges dont need to spend hours looking over every horse they make there decision most of the time at the walk by and then go back and look at those horses that caught there eye. This happens at local shows as well

People will always complain , people will always say judging wasnt fair, and as for a judge judging a class with large entries of hunters and jumpers or whatever and doing it all day long well this happens all the time on the A circuit Hunter classes and we all know quite frankly there isnt any judging that truly goes on in Jumper it is a TIMED event based on faults so that one is pretty simple did the horse go clean or did it not and the figure times. Liberty is so subjective anyway a nice flat knee action or a high breaking level action there is no one answer depends on what you like. A champion one day may not be the next it is all a matter of what horse is feeling "on" at the moment

I guess I dont see one the huge issue.. are classes and shows are growing which means our regisrty is growing. Which means those selling "show" horses to newbies and others and growing and have a market.

Isnt this what we wanted? Again since most will agree the amount of quality horses each year is truly on the rise well again isnt that what we as a breed wanted?

How does someone "YOU" feel doesnt belong there being in your class effect you? Does it change you win> make your win any less important? Ok I can see that argument if 90 percent of the horses there were pet quality but umm folks that isnt the case in fact it is the other way around.

Some of those horses may do great on a local level I have heard several people say my horse was undefeated in our area well guess what so were several others and yep some of those didnt place at all that just means the quality is there -

Again cant seem to have it both ways small breeders trying to get themselves on the map and then saying hey lets change it this isnt working- Kay when you get to R Nationals and walk out of a ring in a huge class with a top ten out of horses that when you look around you would have a hard time placing or picking only 10 well let me tell you.. that feeling is incredible and to me means more then going in a class of 8 and getting a top ten. but that is JUST ME

I will say this though.. the market and show entries speak for themselves. Our breed is growing and the market is getting better I truly dont understand why the jump and increase is a bad thing it speawonders for our registry and wonders for the many small breeders who are out there working just as hard as the larger better marketed ones when they come home with top tens out of such large and competitive classes.

** by the way Kay that wasnt aimed at you I realize now looking back it could seem that way and it really wasnt at all was a general statement**

 

[kaykay]

ashley

I AM ONE OF THE LITTLE PEOPLE!!! LOL. Im not a trainer. I dont show in an unlimited amount of shows. I showed in 3 shows this year. How does this push the little person out?? You already have to show to qualify so why not make it so you have to enter your classes??

Why arent shows getting entries?? Thats a big question and probably has alot of different answers. But we need to support these shows when possible and getting entries up doesnt hurt.

And I disagree with the "if a horse can jump a rail its a nationals quality horse" Sorry just cant swallow that. I dont have a nationals quality jumping horse. And i know i dont. If just being able to jump a rail was all it took then i probably have 5 national quality jumping horses. LOL

and i cant help it i am one of those people who is always thinking at least 5 years down the road. Are we going to make nationals a 2 week show?? Because that is what it will take. Either way something will have to be done.

Judges are only human!! If i had to judge 90 liberty horses or 100 hunters would my eyes start to glaze over?? I think they would. Its a human response. And Ashely your judge response mainly only deals with halter. But even in halter if I pay my entry fee i want my horse looked at. Thats why i paid the entry fee!

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]Well I do agree that at the R nationals this year in the open division it WAS a trainers show. THese judges looked at the handlers, looked up in the stands and walked right by several horses without even a look. If they didnt know you they didnt look at your horse. That was the open division. It was very discouraging and made you want to run up to one of the trainers that does amha and say please take my horse in so they will give it a look! After hearing Belinda say that she SAW a judge looking at the program book at the AMHA Worlds reading who was in the classes it make me never want to show anything in open again and if AMHR hires amha judges only again for the R nationals I wont show in anything but ammy and futurity there either. The #s in the open classes at worlds shows that most people dont enter unless they have a well kown trainer at the other end. I dont want R nationals to become like that and after the judging that section this year it seemed like it was headed in that direction. So many of us were so upset that we were signing petetions to recomend judges for next year right there![/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[Ashley]

Well Kay how do yout think they judge a jumping class????? Basically all it is is getting a clear round, after that its the speed. So what WOULD make a national jumping horse when that is how jumping is judged???

Now hunter is a bit different.

Again it all comes down to not every show is capable of offereing every class. So how is it fair to say that a person cant show in the class at nationals just cause they didnt show at it back home? It wasnt there fault they cant show at it when the shows dont offer it.

 

[Tabitha]

More little people here, & I also agree with kay.

I've also wondered how it's going to work if Nationals keeps growing--24/7 classes for 2 weeks? 3 weeks? That's just not feasible. Actually, though, I doubt it will come to that. Many shows/breeds have had a huge growth spurt at some point in time, then sooner or later they start to dwindle away again. I expect the same thing will happen with AMHR Nationals. "Everyone" wants to do Nationals, & so they are showing there now. Some will do it for a couple/few years & then decide that's enough of that. I've already heard a couple people say that they are going to be taking fewer horses next year, and that's only out of the very few people that I personally know who went this year.

I don't see the problem of qualifying for each division. If your local show doesn't offer the class you want to enter, talk to the show committee, and convince them to add that class in. That's what we did with the Morgans and Arabs. When local people started showing at Nationals, they asked for specific qualifying classes. Show committees put those classes in, and in turn those extra classes brought out more exhibitors--people from other areas that wanted to qualify drove to the shows here. It was good for everyone.

Our local show doesn't offer a liberty class, but they could. Putting one in would probably bring in a nice chunk of money for the show. It's been mentioned, so perhaps one of these years it will happen.

 

[kaykay]

ok since lyn brought it up im going to be blunt and say it. Do you think those amha trainers support amhr local shows?? I highly doubt it. or do you think they show amha all year and then do a couple quick amhr shows just so they can go to nationals?? Just a question

And why are the local shows dwindling and nationals is going up?? Does no one but me think this is a problem?? If attendance was up at both i would never say a word. But the fact is attendance at local shows are really hurting. I have friends that have started new shows in the last couple years and they are barely making it. But then everyone screams we need more local shows or theres no show in their area. The only way to get more shows and keep the ones we have is to show up and attend.

Ashely my point is EVERY HORSE CAN JUMP. Does that mean it should be entered in a national jumping class?? Every horse can go around an arena to music. So any and every horse is a national quality liberty horse??

Kay

 

[Frankie]

Even before this thread was posted, to qualify for nationals is something I had thought about, even last year I had a similar thread. But I still have not come to a conclusion either way. After reading all of these responses, I still am not sure. But are a few things I wanted to add for others to think about.

I do not think location of local shows should be a consideration. Depending on where you live, you may have a lot of shows in your area or none. If it is none, I'd check with your local club about sponsoring one. Anyway, there are a lot of us who have to make a long trip each and every time we show. I know if we had to qualify for nationals, I'd stll make the trips needed to get my horse qualified. I think many would do the same. I do agree that if we all had to qualify, it would be a well needed boost for many local and area shows.

Lisa, I have to disagree to a small extent, I do not think the Registry is growning as much as just the nationals is growing. Because local shows attendance was way down this year at all 7 shows my horses were in. At two of the shows we attended, both of those shows, the number of horses entered was down by 100 horses. People only HAVE to show at a few shows, so that's all they are doing. If numbers keep dropping at local shows, the shows will too drop, and then I'm driving 7-9 hours to get to one, instead of my now 5 in most cases.

I think I would like to see some type of small qualification, definately more than all you have to do is show under a few judges at a few shows. Mainly because, you are always going to have Those Type of people. What I mean by that. While at nationals this year, I talked to and with a ton of people. I was rather put back by the people who do their few shows to get to nationals and their purpose once they get there becomes some type of a game. A few I talked with, their purpose was only for selling purposes. As in, their horses were put in classes with less than 10 horses and then tada,,,,,,,,,,they have a national top ten horse for sale. Another person I talked to, brought a gelding, ya, he qualified, he had been shown at 3 different shows, placed 5th, ONCE.

A small type of qualification is not going to keep out any good horse, or any good horse person. And most likely would not take any more shows than the person is already showing.

But what it may help, is in 6 years from now and anyone can show at Nationals, and the number keeps rising, it will prevent some of us out in barn zz from running 42 miles a day instead of the 12 we already do, because the numbers at nationals are risen to the point we NEED a barn zz.

I had so much fun at Nationals, but if the numbers keep going up, so will the days of the show, and I can't affort to take a month off work to attend a national show, that includes some horses who never placed, or placed 5th, once.

 

[Ashley]

And my point is that you cant really put "national quality" on a class it dont pertain. YOu cant say national quality jumping, when jumping is speed. YOu cant really say national quality liberty or color when that is all the judges preferance in likeing.

Some areas, like Illinois has alot of shows. OUr area only have a few. I do feel those areas that have so many will be down for that fact there are so many shows.

Shows cost alot of money to put on 10-15 grand for small show like what our club puts on. That money dont magically appear.

I personally think that some areas that have alot of shows, could get by with a few less/better shows.

Adding classes isnt all that simple. Adding class can cost more money, as you sometimes would have to pay the judges more(who already get a rediculus amount of money), if depending the time of day/night it goes into, you could have more meals to pay, more air fair.

Yes we could add liberty as well, but who wants to be at a show another 3 hours? And honestly it would probably run that around here as when we did have it, there were alot of entries in it.

Another example, unless we have people to continue makeing our obstical coarse we will be droping obstical out of the show. So if I couldnt show in that, but wanted to at nationals I shouldnt be aloud to because I couldnt back home? Why? My horse has just as good of a chance in it as the others(yes he is trained to the hilt in).

Sorry I guess I just dont see that as fair.

I have also noticed alot of people that show(more the bigger time) Either dont work, or work from home, or have a extreamly flexable job. My case, its harder then heck to get work off in the summer as its our busy time. I showed 2 shows this summer. Neither could I get off for so I ended up calling in (you nuts I wont miss my shows

). BUt in a year I only get 13 days of vacation, part of which you have to save for certian times. And in the winter if we are slow, and they give us fridays off because of that, we are FORCED to use our vaccation time. So when it comes summer I may only have 8 or less days to use. Which isnt very much to try to hit shows. SO my point is, some people due to work scheduals now, are only able to hit the required amount of shows.

 

[Frankie]

Do you think those amha trainers support amhr local shows?? I highly doubt it.

Sorry Kay, I was at the local shows in our area, and at the Nationals, and yes, the trainers did their fair share of AMHR shows, not just a few. Just speaking for my area, middle mid west.

As for the AMHA trainers and their placings at Nationals, yes, they did place. BUT I saw a number of "little people", no bodies, place very very well too!