AMHR registration problem

[Sue_C.]

There is absolutely NO reason why any one would want to lie about this

Simply because unscrupulous people would have the descended testicle of a Monorchid removed and sell the horse as a gelding!!

EXACTLY!!!

Especially when you consider the difference in price. Regular gelding around here = under $200, surgery required for a monorchid or cryptorchid = $800 to $1000.

 

[Jill]

I am really sorry!!! I thought that AMHR would accept the opinion of another vet, and I do know about crypt. stallions, etc. I still thought that it would work.

There's a member of this message board (mountain_waif / Lois) who bought a horse who was a "stallion" (sold as a stallion). Didn't descend and went to be gelded but it turned out he was already gelded. The vet went deep looking for the undescended testicles and the horse was in the hospital for some time if I remember right.

 

[Songcatcher]

I had a similar incident last year when I purchased a horse and needed to complete the transfer papers as well as showing on the certificate that he is a gelding. The people who answer the phone at AMHR probably have no leeway when answering questions such as this, and twice I was told that I was just out of luck on this one. The third time I called, I finally said to her that I had spoken to her twice before and that I already knew she couldn't help me, so please let me talk to Zona, NOW!
After explaining the circumstances of the problem when I finally spoke to Zona at AMHR, she said all I needed was a statement from my current vet. My vet had cleaned the gelding's sheath and vaccinated him, so at least there was that much documentation for the vet to write a statement, and it didn't require another vet visit. I submitted the statement with the transfer and now my boy is registered as a gelding. The alternatives presented to me were a hormone test for testosterone or an ultrasound as has been suggested here. With persistence, I think you'll be successful registering your boy. Good luck!

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I DID speak to Zona. I had to wait for her to call me back and that is what took me so long today. She is the one who gave me this information. She was very nice and professional and sympathized with me on the situation. I DO NOT HAVE A COMPLAINT WITH AMHR ON THIS ISSUE.

I will be writing to BOTH previous co-owners of this gelding and leaving no doubt that I am very displeased with this situation. As far as I am concerned at this point, the horse was misrepresented. With transportation, vaccinations, and boarding, I have put more money into this horse than the purchase price. I am VERY UNHAPPY with this transaction. And, the biggest shame is, he is such a nice horse with the potential for showing.

By the way, thanks to all of you for your ideas and suggestions.

 

[Sue_C.]

I will be writing to BOTH previous co-owners of this gelding and leaving no doubt that I am very displeased with this situation. As far as I am concerned at this point, the horse was misrepresented.

I am VERY UNHAPPY with this transaction.

I wish I could help you give them a piece of your mind...this is an unforgiveable, and most unscrupulous business. There should be more that you can do in this situation.

Here's an idea,

tell them both that if this doesn't get rectified, you will post pictures of YOUR new horse, and thanking "X" and "X" for being so kind to sell you this beautiful unregistered horse at a registered price.

If that doesn't work, you can e-mail us and let us know who NOT to buy horses from in the future.

We have previously mentioned having a place to post bad sellers and buyers, too bad we cannot. It would save others from the same sad situations.

 

[Minimor]

But there must be a reason that a Vet has to sign this, right?? I know that the AMHA doesn''t simply take your word for it..."Oh yeah, by the way...my horse has been gelded", just doesn't do it. Good thing, or a lot of folks would be buying half-gelded cryptorcids and not being any the wiser. NOT all of them are nasty horrid animals, some could "pass".

I think the whole point here is of a distreputable breeder/seller here, who just can't be bothered with their end of the CONTRACT. Good heaven's, doesn't it tweak some of you at all that there might be a reason they are being so difficult?

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OK - first of all - AMHA DOES simply take the owner's word for it. All the owner needs to do is sign a statement that it was done--no vet certification needed. It is AMHR that requires the vet cert and I've never understood why they would want a vet's signature. In fact, it flies in the face of logic why anyone would want to have a horse's papers changed from Stallion to Gelding if they had not had the horse gelded! After all, you cannot register any offspring once those papers are changed! So why lie? There's nothing to be gained by this. Think about it! A paper says gelding. Which means no stallion service reports will be accepted and nothing can be registered.

I for the life of me cannot understand why AMHR would require a vet signature. Haven't been able to figure out the logic of that for the 15 years I've been at this. There is absolutely NO reason why any one would want to lie about this. And .... there are still some folks who geld their own colts and they are NOT vets!!!!!!! Again, WHERE IS THE LOGIC behind such a requirement?!?!?

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AMHR does not require the signature of a vet--it requires the signature & address of the person who performed the gelding procedure on the horse. since there are still some individuals who do their own gelding, obviously they are able to sign the gelding certificate. No vet required. (Not that this is of any help to Songcatcher!)

As for a vet signature giving guarantee that the gelding really is a complete gelding, well, I'm afraid there are probably some vets out there who do a sloppy job of gelding and still sign the certificate.

I honestly don't know why anyone's signature, other than the owner's, is required to change a stallion to gelding anyway. In the Morgans, the owner signs the little slip saying as of this date the horse is a gelding, send in the papers, NO FEE REQUIRED, and the papers get changed over.

To all of you who are saying the vet signature is required to avoid fraudulent papers, all I can say is you sure do paint a nasty picture of the Miniature breed. I have been in Miniatures for not quite 4 years now, and in those 4 years I've heard of more crooked sellers and fraudulent dealings than I ever did in all of the 38 years we've had Morgans--well, we owned Morgans exclusively but rode, trained and showed Arabs and Quarter Horses as well, and my view of it is there are more crooked people in Miniatures than there were in all those breeds put together

Sad. Very sad.

 

[Sue_C.]

all I can say is you sure do paint a nasty picture of the Miniature breed. I have been in Miniatures for not quite 4 years now, and in those 4 years I've heard of more crooked sellers and fraudulent dealings than I ever did in all of the 38 years we've had Morgans

my view of it is there are more crooked people in Miniatures than there were in all those breeds put together

Hey whoa Nellie!! I have been involved with horses all my life, and YUP, Morgans too have had their fair share of "bad sellers/owners/trainers as well; so has any and ALL breeds. Difference today, in reference to your 38 years of experience, is, the internet. That is why it seems so bad to you right now, here in the Mini World, we have this Forum and other internet sites to go to now. Before, one basically puddled around in their own small world of show friends, even for those who showed at a National level; there were only "so many" folks we could actually talk with. Man, some of the things I have heard about the Quarterhorse and Arabian "people" back in "those days", makes ya wanna cringe.

I know of more than one "spotted" Appaloosa that didn't have spots till the owner got hold of some liquid nitrogen, or what about quarterhorses having their tails cut so they couldn't swish their tails?

Put into perspective, we ain't that bad a bunch. Think about it for a minute, if we are talking about it, we are concerned and trying to make sure "the bad stuff" doesn't happen.

BTW, as I recall, I did have to have a Vet's signiature on my Appaloosa gelding certificates as well.

 

[Ashley]

It hasnt been that long ago that I sent in a gelding certificate for AMHA. They do take your word for it, all you have to give the name of the horse, date it was gelded and you Sign it saying it was done.

 

[minimomNC]

I did have this to happen to me also. When I contacted the previous owners all they sent me was a copy of the vet records showing the horse had been castrated. AMHR accepted that. It wasn't signed but it did have the clinic information and the date of the surgery.

Good luck, I sure hope your situation works out for you as well as mine did for me.

 

[Minimor]

Hey whoa Nellie!! I have been involved with horses all my life, and YUP, Morgans too have had their fair share of "bad sellers/owners/trainers as well; so has any and ALL breeds. Difference today, in reference to your 38 years of experience, is, the internet. That is why it seems so bad to you right now, here in the Mini World, we have this Forum and other internet sites to go to now. Before, one basically puddled around in their own small world of show friends, even for those who showed at a National level; there were only "so many" folks we could actually talk with. Man, some of the things I have heard about the Quarterhorse and Arabian "people" back in "those days", makes ya wanna cringe.

Ah, but you see, I'm taking the internet into account here. I've had a home computer & internet only just over a year now, so I wasn't talking things I've heard over the 'net--I'd heard of enough stuff just "locally", from people who have been in Minis for awhile & have been dealing with other Mini people all over the continent. You simply paint an even worse picture than I'd already seen in my first 3 years of Miniatures....when I didn't have internet. Heck, even my mom--and she's hardly ever on the 'net--said after talking to someone on the phone the other day, there sure are an awful lot of crooks in this Miniature breed.

Sure, I never said there weren't shady dealings in other breeds, Morgans, Arabs, TB's, whatever...but as I see it there are more of them in Minis. When Mom said that the other day I told her I think it's because everybody & his dog owns Miniatures. When dealing with such a big cross section of people, I guess you're bound to run into more shysters. What gets me is how so many people on this board presumes so many people are out to do whatever crooked thing they can do.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

In all the years I was in Arabs I never once had a colt with a retained testicle. Since coming into Minis I have heard, but not experienced (Yet) many, many MANY colts with undescended or only one descended testicle. I have also seen loads of advice, on here and other Forums, that this is normal and the other one will come down!! THIS is why we have people who are willing to defraud gelding papers- because IME we have a problem that we will not face. I do not believe this problem is nearly as prevalent in big horse breeds- Yes, it does occur- just not nearly so often

 

[Jill]

If this horse was advertised on the sales board, or if you came upon the sellers website because you saw his / her link on this message board, I would report the person to Mary Lou. She may have some leverage in this matter.

 

[Songcatcher]

Well, I sent another email yesterday and sent it to BOTH co-owners. I got a response today from the one I had sent the money to (not the one who was boarding or signed the papers). Maybe I should have gone this route to begin with but felt I should be dealing with the one who signed the papers.

At least I have been acknowledged. Maybe now the ball will start rolling.

 

[SunQuest]

If all else fails, there is also small claims court that you can take these people to. It is not fun, but we had to do that to someone who sold us a registered appy with papers and then he didn't turn the papers over to us.

Make sure you have all your documentation including advertisements and written contract stating you were buying a registered gelding.

When you take them to court, you would ask the judge to grant you one of 2 things:

A refund of the difference in the cost of an unregistered non-showable animal (pet quality) vs a properly registered showable animal. Make sure to have someone else who is a professional in the showing end of things there to be able to testify to the cost differences between the two animals.

Or the signed paperwork by the individual that did the gelding which will allow you to properly register this horse.

Most likely the sellers will be more than glad to get you the paperwork

Hopefully one of the two of them will get the proper paperwork to you.