Anderson or Parelli

[Sue_C.]

recommend starting with the The Seven Games, it's part of the Success Series. Products can usually be bought cheaper on eBay.

They are a heck of a lot cheaper when you simply refer to them as plain old common sense horsemanship.

 

[wcr]

Not a fan of either one of them. Parelli is arrogant and obnoxious and flat out stole the ride and drive he is now doing from Carole Mercer and her Dancing Morgans. I worked as her groom for an expo and Clinton Anderson did clinics and I was disgusted at his aggressive(and sometimes abusive)treatment of the horses he used. It is amazing what you see behind the scenes.

I have always been a John Lyons fan but so much deals with riding. I learned a lot from his old ground work video. There is an art to it to get the most out of lunging and free round pen work and you need to now how to position yourself in relation to the horse. It is the old Join up of Monty whats-his-name that was so popular way back when.

The library has videos so go get them there but find someone knowledgeable and spend your money on hands on stuff.

 

[midnight star stables]

For those of you that are knocking the Parelli program how many of you have actually tried it? I too use to be against the program, mainly because I couldn't stand Pat's arrogant personality. I have owned horses for 31 years. Before the Parelli program I considered myself a fairly knowledgeable horseman. I have gotten so much out of the program and my Paso Fino is a much happier horse. My miniature mare has come a long way with the program. I have also tried Clinton Anderson program, very similar but I feel he takes a more aggressive approach. I agree that Pat Parelli is a marketing genius, I do feel that some of his products are over priced. Before training my miniature to harness I bought a well known miniature horse trainer's dvd, I used most of what I learned from Parelli and very little of the miniature horse trainer's method. This is Miss Gracie's 3rd year in harness and she is doing wonderful. I would recommend starting with the The Seven Games, it's part of the Success Series. Products can usually be bought cheaper on eBay.

I just wanted to comment on this. I have not tried the Parelli Program, but have not felt the need to. My horses listen and respect me as it is now. But the thing about the PP that gets to me is that it takes backwards steps. If I want my horse to go over a tarp, I want the horse to go over the tarp. There are many ways to have the horse happily go over the tarp, in MUCH less time. Same with getting on a trailer. I use my trailer nearly every weekend in the summer - I don't have an hour to get the horse on the trailer each time...

There is truth in what they say, but common sense does the same thing.

I used to watch Pat Parelli, one show still sticks to my mind. He had a disabled young girl and a teenaged standardbred. I love standardbreds so was very interested, at one point he had the girl shooing the horse away from her with her arms wide, kept telling her to do it. Didn't see much point except to comfuse the horse. The poor boy didn't know what he had done wrong. His lower lip kept flopping up and down with confusion. I did get discouraged with trying to get Seven to lunge so made a "carrot" stick, put a carrot on the end of a lunge whip and he followed it at a walk in a circle until it fell off, he ate it and wouldn't move again. I have also concidered clicker training. Any thoughts on this method? CA horses look happier, PP spends too much time selling his products.

Lucky seven, I do not mean any disrespect by this but instead of finding a method of training, possibly seeking out a trainer in your area might be able to help teach you basic horse training? Lunging can be challenging when starting out, but it just takes time, practice and knowledge. I am reading it correct when you said you tried to lunge Seven by holding a carrot on a whip in front of him? That really is not "correct horsemanship", no matter what training method you follow. You need to USE the whip to move the horse away from you, teach them that they need to respect your cues - physical and verbal. Also, who old is Seven? Where are you trying to lunge him (in a round pen, in a sand ring, in an arena, in his field, on the lawn)? Does Seven have any other training. It is my personal opinion that you just need some more education about horsemanship and training. Give us a little more information about what you are wanting to do, and we might be able to help. Good luck.

 

[Reble]

I agree John Lyons Technic's

You want to train a horse fully, you do not want to break their spirit.

 

[wingnut]

I personally prefer Clinton Anderson. His methodology works for me and how my mind works. That's the key....*I* have to be comfortable with the methods being used if I'm going to be able to use them effectively.

 

[heartkranch]

For those of you that are knocking the Parelli program how many of you have actually tried it? I too use to be against the program, mainly because I couldn't stand Pat's arrogant personality. I have owned horses for 31 years. Before the Parelli program I considered myself a fairly knowledgeable horseman. I have gotten so much out of the program and my Paso Fino is a much happier horse. My miniature mare has come a long way with the program. I have also tried Clinton Anderson program, very similar but I feel he takes a more aggressive approach. I agree that Pat Parelli is a marketing genius, I do feel that some of his products are over priced. Before training my miniature to harness I bought a well known miniature horse trainer's dvd, I used most of what I learned from Parelli and very little of the miniature horse trainer's method. This is Miss Gracie's 3rd year in harness and she is doing wonderful. I would recommend starting with the The Seven Games, it's part of the Success Series. Products can usually be bought cheaper on eBay.

What of his did you try? That only HE came up with? The reason he is so popular is because it dumbs it down for newbies. Honestly, and he makes people think they can do anything with there horse, as long as you have a carrot stick and his special halter.

I'm sorry but his "games" are full of crap. Every horse that has been parelli trained that I have seen, and FIXED because of people doing it the parelli way, is stupid. All of the horses have been pushy and bad manners. You know why? Because they are confused about who is the leader. The human or the horse. Of course we are but parelli "games" makes it so the horse thinks it's the boss. There are some people that are smart enough to know( like you) what to do with a pushy horse, but the newbies don't.

 

[weerunner]

I've never tried Parelli. I LOVE John Lyons, I use it on all my horses. I always leave my lessons on a positive, calmer note than when we began. That is a sign of a good method in my books.

 

[Kim~Crayonboxminiatures]

I have to echo someone else earlier on the topic, I read/watch as many trainers as I can, and pick what works for me. I don't fall into only one method. Not a Parelli fan, but I have used pieces from what I have read/seen. My favorite books to read are Mark Rashid, and I read a lot of John Lyons also in the past. I also appreciate clicker training. I tend to pick out what works for me, as we each have our own "style" and understanding and I also firmly believe that not every method works on every horse you have to be open to trying a new approach when what you are trying to communicate isn't working.

I would recommend working with a local trainer if you can find one. If you are not horse savvy any training method can be dangerous if you don't know how to read horse behaviour and react correctly.

 

[WashingtonCowgirl]

Spanky is my first mini, but I've trained many full sized horses before and this is what I have to say on tue matter:

Watch and read everything you can from every trainer you can. Learn at least one thing each time, even of it's not to follow that method from that trainer. Learn at least a couple different methods as horses are like children and two horses may need different technics to learn the same information. Learn to be adaptable and creative and to think on your feet, if you can't find anything that works, look at how your horse learns and come up with your own method. Good luck. Training your own horse can be the most rewarding thing and create an incredible bond

 

[valshingle]

It is the old Join up of Monty whats-his-name that was so popular way back when.

Ah, this brings back memories. Back when we lived in CO we adopted a 2 yr old mustang colt. We quickly gelded him and I spent hours trying to get him to 'join-up'. But Reno (the mustang) hadn't read John's books and simply didn't want to connect to any human. Forget treats, he didn't want anything to do with us. We had him for several years and he spent much time trying to get my ex-husband off his back. There was lots of bolting and bucking. He could run flat out with his head tucked to his chest while I tried to stop him with a curb bit (we did start with a snaffle). Fortunately he would just run to the barn and stop there. He wasn't panicked, he wasn't hurt; he simply did not want to be a riding horse. We eventually gave him to a young cowboy who had to the energy and patience to work with him.

As for Parelli - I used to attend the Denver stock show and marveled at the number of people who would attend PP's seminars and then walk around with those orange sticks. He is a marketing genius.

 

[Margo_C-T]

I went to the no-charge, 'introductory' evening session of Pat Parelli WAY back when he was just getting started...(let's see...my neighbor, who'd moved here in '86 w/ a 2 YO Tenn. Walker STALLION, then bred the common, ill-mannered thing and had it's equally common 2 YO(thankfully, THIS one he gelded!)son, was all jacked about going to learn all about 'training' this 2 YO, so it must have been about '90...). Parelli had yet to instigate all his 'games' and various other draws, nor the extreme marketing tactics/techniques, but even then, I was wholly UNimpressed, so I 'passed' on the 'opportunity'

to attend the next two days' of exposure to Mr. Parelli. Newbie-horse-owner neighbor ate it up, though...and,already a man with a strong shot of arrogant ego, has been 'quite the expert'-at least in his own estimation--ever since!

Now, there is quite a crop of these kinds of people. My only exposure to any except Parelli and Monty Roberts(who I came to feel about pretty much as I feel about Parelli) is watching each a FEW times on RFD-TV and more recently, HRTV. I kind of like what little I've seen of Chris Cox, and Craig Cameron(both of whom seem to have some solid, GENUINE cowboy(in the best sense of the word, which many don't seem to understand nowadays)knowledge...but I wouldn't go out and 'buy' products with THEIR names on them, either!

I was set up onto a work mule at age 2; rode a cousin's pony(bareback)virtually every waking moment while visiting my aunt and uncle near Lubbock summers from age 6 through 9, nagged my parents into my first OWN horse(a small mare from the Arapahoe)when I was 9, and since then,have owned, ridden, trained, shown, horses of a fair number of different breeds and disciplines, in the intervening 61 years. I learned mostly from the people I was around(some who knew what they were doing, some not so much-you learn the difference, when you care deeply to LEARN, and KNOW!); only took 'formal' lessons from a totally WESTERN RIDING-oriented gentleman who TRAINED RIDERS to train their horses, and recommended only TWO reading sources...Henry Wynnmalen of the UK, and Col. Alois Podhasky, of the Spanish Riding School...both Dressage masters!My instructor was NEVER a 'horse trainer' himself, but a VERY smart, astute card-holding judge, whose daughter had become a world-class Western exhibitor(mostly AQHA, back then.)I rode cutting horses(my college barrel/pole horse started as a cutting horse) with one of the best of the time, June Mitchell(a man, despite the first name!), and just watched and listened closely to EVERYONE who was clearly knowledgeable. These kinds of people KNEW THEIR STUFF before Parelli and his ilk could toddle!

I am QUITE comfortable with my now-considerable abilities and store of knowledge--but am STILL learning...no one will EVER 'know it all' about horses and horsemanship, and I consider continued learning a lifetime project! I do believe there is NO substitute for experience, experience, experience...Wet saddleblankets, we oldtimers would say.

Agree 100% w/ what Marty expressed, BTW.)

Margo

 

[Stef]

I have never been a fan of Anderson or Parelli.

I LOVE Monty Roberts! I have had so many wonderful results with his methods.

 

[Sandy B]

As one poster said, they have had to deal with PP protégée trained horses and they are usually pushy and confused. Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes!! I had not dealt with a PP follower horse until the last year when I have gotten several PP followers and their horses to work with. I pull my hair out as all they want to do is play with their horses and not ride. These PP followers are very uncomfortable in the saddle and have no leadership skills once their. I have yet to watch them "play" with their horse and see that horse look happy. Every one has their ears pinned back as they run next to them and "chase" them. Which one looks like the herd leader??? A few weeks ago, one lady almost got kicked in the head when she sent her horse out in the round pen by a nasty minded sour PP trained horse. Her reaction? "Oh my" and carried on.

As far as CA, yes he can be a bit aggressive, but so can a leader of a herd of horses (boss mare). If a person learns how horses communicate to one another and apply those principles, you are steps ahead. I say enough with the PP "games" and learn to read and communicate to your horse by learning their natural communication ways. Horses communicate with their ears, eyes, nose, tail, hooves, and body. For instance, if a horse can feel just one fly, then they for sure can feel your touch and que's. Besides CA, I really like Craig Camerson and a man named Ezra Marrow. I am lucky that Ezra lives 30 minutes away. I have had him come to my ranch several times too work with 4-H kids and their unruly horses. You can google Ezra and get to his web page.

 

[TyeeRanch]

I have studied each of the people being mentioned here. I have seen positives and negatives to each. Just as each horse is different and different things work with different horses....different things work with different people. BUT....if you truly embrace the "natural horsemanship" methods, WE have to adjust to the horse. Every horse, every day. Just like people, they are not all built from the same mold. So why stick to one clinician? I enjoy each of them. But never have I used what I have learned from just one.

 

[lucky seven]

Thanks for all the advice, some may remember I almost gave up on seven because we just didn't get along. Things are better with his food agression, he moves over and gives me space while he is eating so I can clean, top water ect. I have a small round pen and am trying to get some weight off him through exercise. He stands right in front of me and won't move off even when I tell him to or push on him with the handle of a whip. He walks better now with me, that was also a problem. He is quite pushy. He is a 4 yo gelding. He should be named Bruce Springsteen because he thinks he is the "boss" His attitude needs changing and I am trying to think of things to do with him that will keep him interested. I have cones and cross rails and just after a few trips around and over he starts nipping my hand. I know not all mini-human unions aren't meant to be but I do like this guy and want to make things work out. There is one trainer close by but having trouble connecting with her. I want to observe her methods before letting near my guy.

 

[valshingle]

Sorry, but it sounds like he needs to learn manners. I haven't read all your posts, so if I am missing something I apologize. Nipping at people is UNACCEPTABLE. Period. I would use a chain over his nose and pop him when he tries to nip. You may need to do this a few times before he 'gets it'. If he keeps nipping then you aren't correcting him strongly enough. He needs to think that the wrath of God is going to get him. Quick, firm corrections are kinder than repeated nagging.

When you have him in the round pen (forget the lunge line for now), ask him to move off by swishing the lunge whip by his hind feet or hindquarters (if you can be accurate). If a swish doesn't work, than move up to mild contact with the whip. If that doesn't work, then a firmer swish (or even pop) is needed. It doesn't matter which direction that he moves right now - only that he moves away from you when you ask. Once he starts going in a direction, keep him going. Don't let him stop until YOU want him to. BTW, you should be clucking to him immediately before using the whip, so eventually the cluck will replace the whip as a cue. Once you can get him to go around in each direction, then you can try it with a lunge line. If you have a round pen, you really don't need to use a lunge line unless you want him to get used to it for other locations (shows, etc).

There was an article on lunging in a recent Miniature Horse World magazine. But I don't remember which one. Perhaps the Performance Issue?

 

[DrivinTime]

I like the John Lyons books; his methods make sense to me. "Bringing Up Baby" is a good starting place - it goes step-by-step through basic ground training, with photos.

 

[JennyB]

I also am NOT a PP fan at all...can't stomach his wife

. I think he has done a lot of good and some bad...and I think you could say that about every trainer, vet, horseshoer and doctor!

...don't care at all for Monty Roberts, that man has a lot of dirty secrets under his sleeves I suspect!

 

If I were to choose a excellent trainer to take your horse to, hands down I would pick Buck Brannaman. He is not the best with people, but he sure knows his horses and learned from the Ray Hunt and Tom & Bill Dorrence and the were absolutly the BEST

 

I also like Clinton Anderson too..he is Very good with people and I like his methods. I also like Craig Cameron a lot too...has a great Smile and is good with horses

 

There is my two cents! Good luck with getting your horse straightned out

 

Blessings,

Jenny

 

[midnight star stables]

Sorry, but it sounds like he needs to learn manners. I haven't read all your posts, so if I am missing something I apologize. Nipping at people is UNACCEPTABLE. Period. I would use a chain over his nose and pop him when he tries to nip. You may need to do this a few times before he 'gets it'. If he keeps nipping then you aren't correcting him strongly enough. He needs to think that the wrath of God is going to get him. Quick, firm corrections are kinder than repeated nagging.

When you have him in the round pen (forget the lunge line for now), ask him to move off by swishing the lunge whip by his hind feet or hindquarters (if you can be accurate). If a swish doesn't work, than move up to mild contact with the whip. If that doesn't work, then a firmer swish (or even pop) is needed. It doesn't matter which direction that he moves right now - only that he moves away from you when you ask. Once he starts going in a direction, keep him going. Don't let him stop until YOU want him to. BTW, you should be clucking to him immediately before using the whip, so eventually the cluck will replace the whip as a cue. Once you can get him to go around in each direction, then you can try it with a lunge line. If you have a round pen, you really don't need to use a lunge line unless you want him to get used to it for other locations (shows, etc).

There was an article on lunging in a recent Miniature Horse World magazine. But I don't remember which one. Perhaps the Performance Issue?

I agree. Ask, tell, enforce.

I expect ALL my horses to behave... From my foals up to my seniors. Manners is important. Lucky Seven, if I were you, I'd do exactly as Valshingle said. Seven NEEDS to learn that you are boss. If it means that you need to be mean once or twice, so be it ~ They learn very quick that it's nicer to listen to you.

With most of my horses, just a raised voice is usually enough to set them in line. Again it just takes time and practice ~ you can do it!

 

[Miss Gracie]

What of his did you try? That only HE came up with? The reason he is so popular is because it dumbs it down for newbies. Honestly, and he makes people think they can do anything with there horse, as long as you have a carrot stick and his special halter.

I'm sorry but his "games" are full of crap. Every horse that has been parelli trained that I have seen, and FIXED because of people doing it the parelli way, is stupid. All of the horses have been pushy and bad manners. You know why? Because they are confused about who is the leader. The human or the horse. Of course we are but parelli "games" makes it so the horse thinks it's the boss. There are some people that are smart enough to know( like you) what to do with a pushy horse, but the newbies don't.

I have heard Pat Parelli many times state that he didn't invent the techniques that he uses in his program. He learn much of what he known's from others such as Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrence.

I have applied all of the 7 games on the ground and in the saddle. My horses are respectful most of the time, when they're not I reinforce what I have learned. Horse will continually test your leadership skills, it's their nature. I have studied level 1, 2, 3, the Liberty Horse Behavior course, and the Success Series.

Just because someone tells you they use the Parelli program doesn't mean they have applied the techniques properly. If someone has a horse that has been in the program and it is still pushy and is confused about who the leader is then they are doing the program wrong. I have friends that don't get the results that I do simply because they are doing it wrong, unfortunately they blame the horse and/or the program.