Another Cream Dilute Color Testing Question

[Jill]

I appreciate the input and information on the other thread I have about cream dilute.

I am planning to have the mare below tested as well for cream dilute. She is registered as a palomino, but *I* don't think she is. I think she is a very light bay dun. However, her full sister who is similar in color (not as white a mane and tail) has foal two colts who appeared to be buckskin but were still births and a little early. So, it could be that when their hair fully came in, they'd have not been buckskin (?). This mare also carries dun.

What do you all think as far as whether or not this one could carry cream dilute? What color do you reckon she is correctly called (well, other than her call name, Goldie -- lol).

Btw, this is the mare I'm breeding to Erica's buckeroo son, Big City Bucks.

 

[Dona]

Do you know the colors of this mare's parents? That would help a lot.

Just by looking at her.....she "could" have both, the cream gene as well as dun. (Dunalino) But, she almost looks a bit too red on her face to be Palomino. I'm thinking Dun or maybe Silver Chestnut...or those two together?

Her sister's foals, that looked buckskin....could have been dun. They look pretty much the same. So. I think the only way you will know for sure, is to have her tested for the cream gene.

:

(very pretty mare, BTW!)

:

 

[Jill]

Thanks, Dona!

I had to giggle when you asked the colors of her parents. CKC / Kim may see this and remember the sire's color, but off the top of my head, I don't recall. The mother's color is what I'd call "Goldie Color". They could be twins if memory serves

I agree with you, she's like too peachy color to be palomino I believe, but I've been wrong before. If I were in charge of naming the colors, I'd call this color Apricot Dun.

Whenever the results are in, will let you all know the findings.

 

[minimomNC]

On AMHR her sire is listed as a palomino, but in AMHA he is listed as a red roan. So much for accurate colors.

 

[Jill]

Thanks, Karen!!! I will look through my pictures at home. I'm not sure, but I think Kim may have given me a picture of him, but I may be thinking of the grandsire...

 

[chandab]

Jill,

Perhaps when you know what color Goldie is, I'll know what color Tana is. They look very similar in color to me. Tana's dam is a dark buckskin dun (perhaps sooty buckskin dun) and her sire is a leopard appy (black).

Here's a picture of Tana this last fall.

She's registered as a palomino (they wouldn't take dunalino). Looking forward to spring to see how she sheds.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Tana looks Silver to me, always has. Just straightforward Silver Black (Dapples possibly??

: ). Goldie looks the same colour as Rabbit, who is a Red Dun + Flaxen, but has a more prominent dorsal stripe than Goldie. She could also be a Silver Bay Dun

(I lifted this off Equine Color- I hope that is OK??? If not of course remove it!!)

This mare has been tested and has no Cream.

Goldie does not have the darker lower legs- but this might just be Goldie!! It does not absolutely rule out anything.

It will be interesting to see if she has Cream.

Again "Silver does not show on Red" is the accepted fact at the moment, so I completely rule out any chance of her being "silver" Chestnut- sorry Dona you knew I'd say that!!!

:

 

[Jill]

Can't see it in the pictures I first posted, but Goldie does have darker lower legs. I think I can find some online and if so, will put them at the bottom of this post...

And, Jane, your picture from Equine Color is not showing up BUT if it's the one I'm thinking of, it's a little neat because I bet the picture you picked up on is actually a picture of the dam of my 3x Nat'l Champion gelding, Sunny (Tibbs Sundowner), who is a silver bay and is also pictured on Equine Color...

Here, you can see my Goldie's lower leg color I think if you look hard. I am certain she carries and shows silver, but it's hard to capture on picture what you can see in person sometimes. Additionally, I feel Tana's color is very much like Goldie's and first time I saw her picture, was struck by how similar they are.

On a side note, I am measuring Goldie as an A size horse despite her AMHR paperwork and am optimistic at getting her hardshipped into AMHA this summer. If that happens, I have thought up the coolest name for her (yep, of course I would like a name I thought up): Whinny For Me's Gold Dun Girl.

 

[chandab]

Tana looks Silver to me, always has. Just straightforward Silver Black (Dapples possibly??

: ).

Jane,

I don't think she can be silver anything, both her parent are black-based and show no silver. Her dam is a dark buckskin dun and her sire is a black leopard appy.

Here's Maidy, dark buckskin dun (with Tana)

And here's her sire, Randy, black leopard appy.

I will probably get her DNA color tested eventually, but I'll wait til after she sheds this spring.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

You know what- I do not know what effect Silver has on Dun alone???

I'm off to ask.

:

OK no longer being young enough to have a Blonde moment, I was having a Grey one!

Did you actually see both parents???

Are you certain that they are the parents??

I think we have asked all this before but bear with me, I have trouble at the moment remembering what day it is!!

 

[Songcatcher]

You know what- I do not know what effect Silver has on Dun alone???

I'm off to ask.

:

Please forgive me if I'm hijacking this thread, but this threw me for a loop. I don't know what you mean by "effect Silver has on Dun alone". Is there any such thing as "Dun alone"? I thought Dun was a dilution or modification of Black, Bay, or Red???????

 

[CKC]

Sorry- I am a little late getting on here today. Jill I just sent you an e-mail with her sires picture. Her dam looks just like Goldie. Also, sending a picture of her grandsire.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Ok well first off I think Goldie is a silver bay but I am curious maybe it isnt showing in pictures but what does she have that makes you think she is a dun? I mean other then a dorsal stripe (most will agree dorsal stripe alone doesnt make a dun) does she have cobwebbing, or leg barring any primitave markings at all?

It isnt uncommon for many bays to have dorsals in fact I owned a stallion who not only had a true dorsal but passed it on to every foal I ever had by him they were all what I called line back bays but not duns no other markings just the dorsal. I do know it isnt uncommon for silver horses to have a dorsal as well not sure why?

 

[Jill]

Lisa, I think you're right and that she's a light silver bay. You cannot see it easily, I think the silver has lightened it, but yes, she has all the dun factor in addition to her dorsal stripe. She has leg stripes and edged ears, and she also has a darker head compared to her body, which is another indication of dun.

 

[Sarah]

Jill, Goldie looks alot like Sunny's dam, who is bay + silver + dun (Sunny's sire is chestnut) she's never been tested for anything but she's more than proven her color by her foals. Her dam was silver dapple and her sire is unknown but obviously he would have had to have agouti & dun. For dun factor/characteristics she's got a dorsal stripe & leg barring. Her head is just barely a shade darker than her body, not very noticeable unless you know to look for it. From what I've seen, horses who are dun plus one or two more dilution genes many times have lighter dun factor or they don't have as much dun factor as a horse who is only dun. Here's a few photos of Sunny's dam.

Spring coat, not quite shed off yet. The foal beside her is by a seal brown + cream + silver stallion. I think the foal is probably black + silver + cream + dun but I haven't had her tested yet so we'll see. She does have dun factor though it's pretty light.

Winter coat. Lots of "winter pangare'"

There are summer pictures & pictures of her dun factor on the silver page of the EC site. The first two horses in the "black silver" section on the EC site silver page are out of this mare. The first one is by a black and I think the second one is by a palomino but I can't remember for sure at the moment. I know the mare doesn't have cream, we've had her since she was born and she's never produced a foal w/ cream unless the stud had it.

Here's a bay dun mare out of her (dorsal stripe, leg barring, dark head, shoulder shadow, mane/tail frosting) I can't remember if she's by a chestnut or a palomino, if it's the chesntut she'd be a full sister to Sunny.

Sorry for all the photos.

Anyway, if you really want to know what color Goldie is have her tested for red factor & agouti for sure in addition to the cream. Too bad there is no test for dun or silver but the results of these 3 tests will determine if she's a silver bay dun or simply a palomino. If you don't mind I'd love to know the results if you test.

 

[Jill]

Sarah!!! Oh Thank you so much for the pictures! If Sunny's dam were here, I really, really think I'd have a hard time telling she and Goldie apart at a glance! And that full sister is awesome! I hope she's got the "Sunny" disposition to go with her good looks -- he is just the sweetest horse I know!

I've saved the pictures you posted and really am thrilled to have them in my "Sunny File"!

When I get the results, I will for sure let you know. I haven't even pulled the hairs or anything yet but will be. I think that Goldie and DunIT would be the only two of mine that make me wonder as to what color they may really be. My hunch as I have always said is that Goldie really is light silver bay dun, but will be cool to KNOW for sure

Also, Destiny (cream? agouti?) at Erica's and Suprize (homozygeous?) are being tested, too. And I think also some other horses there so will be cool to get the results and share them with everyone here.

 

[Sarah]

We did have two mares this color but we just sold the older one last summer. We bought their mothers from an old guy that just had them for pets, never did see the sire. The older one was a yearling when we bought the dams and the silver dapple was pregnant with Sunny's mother. I think they were probably at least half sisters, same sire. The other one's dam was silver bay. If you didn't know them it would have been hard to tell them apart.

Yes the dun mare has a great disposition, just like Sunny. Actually she's quite small too, I think she's only 32" or so and she's old enough to hardship but I don't know if my folks have done it yet. CC (Sunny's dam) is kind of "my" mare. I was the one that found her the day she was born, that summer I spent hours with her every day, even taught her how to "shake" although I'm sure she doesn't remember it now which is probably good LOL. Anyway, all of CC's foals have always been very special to me so I am so glad Sunny has such a wonderful home.

:

There's a new lab that was blind tested agains UC Davis (not many labs allow themselves to be blind tested) with the results being 100% accurate against UC Davis's results. They're fast & only $25 per test. This lab is also doing a study on seal brown, if you have a seal brown horse you can get it tested for agouti for FREE. They are trying to isolate the actual seal brown gene instead of just agouti so they need horses that are obviously seal brown (dark/black color, with tan/brown muzzle/soft parts). The info was posted on the EC site forum. Email the contact address on the page, put Seal Brown study in the subject and attach a couple of photos that show your horse's true color as close as possible to see if it meets the criteria.

http://www.petdnaservicesaz.com/Equine.html

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Oh sarah thanks for that info I have a hmm some call her black mare some call her seal brown not sure what she is if she is black with mealy gene or what but I will have her tested thanks

and Jill thanks for explaning your right i couldnt see the dun markings in her photo but sure saw them in the horse Sarah posted

I LOVE a true dun those primitive markings are just so neat!