Another question for Adam or any judges :)

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kaykay

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okay adam this is something else I have always wondered. The rule book says that horses are judged 60 percent on conformation and type and 40 percent on performance, quality and manners

As a judge do you really care about manners? will you mark a horse down with bad manners? I saw quite a few really bad mannered classic ponies but they still won? Not sour grapes because I was not showing against them but i am curious if manners really do matter to a judge?
 
HEHE, the rule book doesn't say "good" manners.
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LOL so true! but we are supposed to be promoting classic ponies as the ultimate childs pony and umm the ones I saw I would not let a child near!
 
Good question........I want an animal showing to me that WANTS to be showing. If you look at some of the best ponies - they can be very "enthusiastic" to the point of being a little edgy, but are just excited. I don't want to see a pony that's baring his teeth and acting crazy. I will fault a horse with a bad attitude - primarily in performance divisions though.

If you look back at my "10 scale", a point or two may be lost for not having a great attitude (with some weight behind it). The bad attitude pony may still have more ring presence than a pony with other conformational issues. I would agree that we should be promoting fun "kids ponies" but ultimately the rule says nothing about that....
 
Adam, I think this topic is great. If you don't mind, look at these 3 ponies and give me your impression. All are Foundation certified.

Yearling stallion

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Yearling mare

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2yr old stallion

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Ok....again, only my opinion. I'll try to keep it related to the Foundation stuff....lol

Black colt:

Extreme for a Foundation - nice length of neck, maybe a little longer backed with a juvenile back end. He has a nice hip that I think will continue to muscle out. He has a more pony look to his head. Based on his stance, I would think that he could easily show Classic if not even Modern Pleasure. He is built like many of those top-performing animals.

Pinto mare:

I would say - a perfect Foundation example. I love all this mares parts - she has a great show ring presence, alert eyes and ears, nice neck that sets well into her body, good shoulder. She has a little more coarseness to her bone structure, so I think she is a prime Foundation example. In this picture, she is showing a little more "parked" than some of the Foundation horses are showing as well. This would be a judgement call - she looks mature for her age. This could either help or hurt her in the class - she may look more masculine than another yearling filly in the same division.

Pinto stallion:

He isn't my favorite horse - he tends to have parts that I would consider in the "gray area". His head is plain - no "pop" when you look at him. He doesn't have an ugly head though by any means. His neck has nice length with a good set into his shoulder. He has a nice angle of shoulder. Nice length of body and nice hip. He looks to be a little weak in the rear end and this could be a level of maturity thing. He has a questionable thickness of bone - probably more thick than his counterparts showing Classic, but more refined than the Foundation ponies. IMO, this would be a colt I'd sit on. I'd see how he matured before determining where to place him. From a judging perspective, he would also be hard to place because of the faults I noted but also as he is one of those "tweeners".
 
Great reply Adam on Carin's three ponies. I know all three well and you and I see them same.

Thanks for the judging clinic as it pertains to foundation ponies!
 
Thank you Adam, the forum must have burped because I KNOW I posted these pics on the other topic!
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Ok....again, only my opinion. I'll try to keep it related to the Foundation stuff....lol

Black colt:

Extreme for a Foundation - nice length of neck, maybe a little longer backed with a juvenile back end. He has a nice hip that I think will continue to muscle out. He has a more pony look to his head. Based on his stance, I would think that he could easily show Classic if not even Modern Pleasure. He is built like many of those top-performing animals.

This is Texaco MGS, and I agree with your evaluation. This photo was taken back in April and he has greatly improved on himself since then. Obviously, NOT FOUNDATION TYPE, even though he carries the seal. An interesting historical note, his grandsire on his dam's side is Michigan's Action Jackson. And he currently measures 44"!

Pinto mare:

I would say - a perfect Foundation example. I love all this mares parts - she has a great show ring presence, alert eyes and ears, nice neck that sets well into her body, good shoulder. She has a little more coarseness to her bone structure, so I think she is a prime Foundation example. In this picture, she is showing a little more "parked" than some of the Foundation horses are showing as well. This would be a judgement call - she looks mature for her age. This could either help or hurt her in the class - she may look more masculine than another yearling filly in the same division.

I'm glad you like her! This is Heaven's Gate Special Design, pictured as a yearling, she's now a coming 3 yr old and will be shown Foundation. In the provided photo, she was showing in the Classic Yearling Over mare class at the '06 Congress where she placed 3rd in a very large class. I agree with your evaluation as well and only fault her with the coarseness of her head. She was very mature at this stage of her yearling year and very well conditioned.

Pinto stallion:

He isn't my favorite horse - he tends to have parts that I would consider in the "gray area". His head is plain - no "pop" when you look at him. He doesn't have an ugly head though by any means. His neck has nice length with a good set into his shoulder. He has a nice angle of shoulder. Nice length of body and nice hip. He looks to be a little weak in the rear end and this could be a level of maturity thing. He has a questionable thickness of bone - probably more thick than his counterparts showing Classic, but more refined than the Foundation ponies. IMO, this would be a colt I'd sit on. I'd see how he matured before determining where to place him. From a judging perspective, he would also be hard to place because of the faults I noted but also as he is one of those "tweeners".

This is Happy Hooligan O.K. and I wish you could see him now. This photo was taken last March and has since bloomed very well. Not the most flattering picture of his head, I agree. However, he has one of the nicer heads of his bloodline (Wilk Wind Walker x Georgetown Tom Cat daughter). I sat on him a lot this year and am very happy with his maturing (though not happy with his behavior! But that's improving as well). His rear end has filled out and muscled up nicely since this photo. I've shown him both Foundation and Classic, he unfortunatly did go over 42" yet seemed a little extreme for the class anyway. I'm happy to show him Classic. I am happy that he did received 2 Reserve Grands at the last show so he gets to stick around a little while longer for me to sit and watch!
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I will note that even though you can not see from these angles, all 3 horses have extremely correct leg structure which is extremely important to me. Especially in stallions, if their legs aren't straight, they get cut immediately. The mare, believe it or not, has very fine bone structure of her legs(another fault for her IMO). Yet, both boys have some serious cannon bones. When you pick them up, you know you're grabbing a solid, powerful leg. Thanks for the evaluations and I would love to see you come down to Texas sometime.
 
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"Thanks for the evaluations and I would love to see you come down to Texas sometime."

I'm always happy to provide my opinion. I do appreciate the feedback on how you feel as well. I am always happy to judge anywhere
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yes this is a good question.. i can't tell you how often i see (especially on the local level) horses rearing, leaping, kicking ect and STILL win.. they might be the nicests horses but i don't see how a judge can place them first if their feet are never on the ground....
 
BWMinis -

Let me begin by stating that this is a beautiful mare no matter what division she is shown. Here's my critique though. She has a dished head with expressive eyes. Face may be a little long and it's accentuated by the dishiness to her head. Nice neck with good connection into her body. It's hard to evaluate her shoulder as her markings and the lighting make it almost impossible (this is sometimes the case in the actual ring as well - you will often see judges move a horse just to change the lighting). Nice chest and barrel. She does have a little slope to her rear end. For halter horses, I like to see a nice flat top-line. This could be due to her age and level of maturity or just her conformation. Looks to have good solid leg conformation with a feminine appearance.

If I were placing this horse, I would say that she exhibits a more Classic appearance than a Foundation appearance. I wouldn't be intimidated (as many people are) by the height difference she is sure to encounter in the Shetland classes. It looks as though she can hold her own.
 
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Alison -

First, I don't believe that there are any specifics for qualifying for Congress. I could be WAY off on that one, but I think it is a show that can be entered like any other.

Second, thanks for the background - we all have our emotional attachments and obviously she has earned hers.

Finally, let me try to explain the Foundation Seal. The Foundation Seal means that a pony has lineage that has been traced back for several generations of "true" Shetland breeding. My understanding is that these lines don't include crossing of Hackneys, etc... into the first few generations. A pony that has the Foundation seal CAN show in the Foundation class as well as in the Classic classes. A pony without the Foundation seal can only show in the Classic class (not the Foundation class).

A good person to direct the questions regarding obtaining a Foundation seal to would be Lewella! She has this amazing ability to recall pedigrees of most of everyone elses' herd not only her own. She's a walking stud book.
 
A good person to direct the questions regarding obtaining a Foundation seal to would be Lewella! She has this amazing ability to recall pedigrees of most of everyone elses' herd not only her own. She's a walking stud book.
LOL Haven't had it said quite that way before but that works!
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Any pony with 4 generations of all A papered ancestors (that means one generation off the papers is still all A's) can be Foundation Certified. My Modern Hall of Fame stallion is Foundation Certified - he qualifies on pedigree. Of course being Foundation Certified does not make a pony Foundation type. A Foundation Certified pony can show in ANY division (must be 42 inches or under for Foundation though) that it fits on type.
 
Very informative thread!! I love reading your comments Adam along with the people who the horses belong to.
 

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