Appy questions

[ohmt]

Thanks for the info, Kim. I had assumed varnish roan is separate from snowflake? One thing I like about these two horses is that neither appear to be varnish. Since varnish tends to increase white and decrease color over time, I'm most fond of appys that don't have any. However, maybe varnish helps to turn on the color??

I have read that many horses that are pinto have the gene to turn on the appy. I don't like mixing appy and pinto so haven't tried it, but I know many appy breeders do and get very good color. I don't believe your stallion is a snowflake. I believe he may be beginning a blanket. How old is he? Half of my few spot's foals are born solid with a few big white spots across their rump. Eventually they get a blanket.

Here is a varnish appaloosa stallion I used to own. Sired by a snowcap stallion and out of a silver black pinto mare. This stallion was born solid black and then started to varnish out as a yearling. This pic was taken when he was 6 yrs. old

Next is a varnish/snowflake appaloosa filly. Sired by a silver black few spot stallion (double a apache kid) and out of a chestnut varnish appaloosa mare who you can see in the background. The dam was born solid chestnut and varnished out at a year old. This filly started to varnish and get snowflake spotting at a year old.

Foal:

Yearling:

2 yr old:

The sire of the above filly-Few spot appaloosa, pictured at a show at 14? years of age (Double A Apache Kid, owned by my good friend Chris Dove before he passed away last year)

 

[debbiesshelties]

Hello, I can not help with the appy question.

Just wanted to say that my stallion is a Lil Promises horse and I adore him! Sweetest boy in the world. Love your mare too.

Debbie

 

[ohmt]

Ok, adding some more pictures sorry guys!!

Fewcap filly, sired by my few spot stallion and out of a varnish appaloosa mare (same dam as the chestnut varnish mare above)

Here she is clipped-she is almost all white this year (she is not grey-it's the appy)

AND lastly, a bay blanketed filly sired by my few spot and out of a solid chestnut mare with zero appy breeding. Born with big white spots on her rump like many of her sisters, and has a blanket this year

This pic was taken at just 2 days old, so don't judge her too much

Pam-I did get to see Dream's brother and absolutely love him!! I can't wait to cross Dream with a couple of appy mares next year. I'd love a few palomino/buckskin appaloosas. Will send you pictures of his foals next year once they arrive. I'm pretty excited already!

 

[Becky]

I don't believe your stallion is a snowflake. I believe he may be beginning a blanket.

That's interesting! I just 'assumed' he was snowflake as he actually doesn't have any 'round spots' as such. But, that tells you how little I know about appy patterns.

He is 3 years old this year and is just starting to get a few more white hairs on his back and one white spot on his left side towards his shoulder. Do blanket apps tend to get more spots or larger blankets as they mature?

 

[ohmt]

Becky, I'm not sure! I think appaloosas in general like to change and accumulate more spots and more white with age. My yearling blanketed colt is varnishing out on his belly and sides and I can see some spots there now so I believe he's going to end up with an extended blanket to his shoulders. I have a weanling colt that was born solid chestnut and when I clipped him had a whole bunch of spots over his rump and is varnishing out like crazy now. I think he'll end up almost white with those spots on his rump.

Your stallion is young so he may very well change quite a bit in the years to come. Take pictures as often as you can and compare. It's amazing how much they change and you don't even notice!

 

[Katiean]

You can never know for sure what you will get with an appy. I have a mare that I think is 6 now and this past summer she spotted out. Her 3 year old son who had also been solid spotted this year. IDK, maybe it is in the water? LOL. I do not know why they both waited until this year to spot. Missy now has a fist sized white spot at the top of her tail and some others across her butt. She has even gotten some white on her face. Her 3 year old colt was sired by a blanketed appy. He has round dots all over. Both are silver dapple.

 

[AppyLover2]

I've seen the term fewcap used several times. Sure wish someone would tell me what that is ----- a picture would be nice too.

 

[HGFarm]

I dont want to go into specifics here, but I have heard through others of some mis-information on the Appaloosa Project and horses that were mis identified regarding colors, patterns, etc....

Roans and snowflakes are born solid and color with age. It sometimes takes several years and some dont start to color until they are several years old either.

OHMT, your filly is a snowcap, not a fewcap. I will use some pics as examples here.

I will, in order, show a pic of a snowcap, a fewcap and a fewspot. All are noted for being homozygous and all are BORN basicly this way... they dont evolve into it. Either a horse has a snowcap blanket at birth or it doesnt. The rest of the body, like OHMT's filly there, can roan, spot or do whatever it wants, but it will never change the blanket or the fact that it has a snowcap blanket.

There are occasional 'false snowcaps'. This is when the horse has a white blanket with no spots, but only ONE parent is an Appaloosa. This horse will NOT be homozygous, so if you need to check something you are going to purchase, check to make sure both parents are Appy. Even if one only has characteristics, that counts as passing on the Appy gene.

A snowcap (pics 1 and 2)has a blanket pattern. The skin under that area will be pink, just like the white parts on a pinto has pink skin. There is no roaning or other patterns in the blanket area.

A fewcap has too much white to be a snowcap- more than a blanket, but not enough white to be a fewSPOT. Usually the head and lower legs will retain color, sometimes also the upper neck area. (Pictures 3 & 4)

A fewspot is born white with VERY LITTLE color anywhere. (Pics 5 and 6) You might find a half dozen body spots and a few dark hairs on the head area- perhaps a bit of color showing in the mane and tail but they are pretty much just a white horse. I have seen so many gray horses or white horses that were tried to be passed off as fewspots. BOTH parents must be Appaloosa, the horse didnt change color into this later, and there must be leopard breeding involved as well.

 

[Becky]

Really fascinating info! Keep it coming.

The pictures are great!

 

[HGFarm]

It seems there is some confusion about leopards also. There are leopards and near leopards.

The horse in my avatar has been mistaken for a 'leopard' by some. He is actually a varnish roan with black spots over his rear. He has no spots on his legs or the rest of his body, and his legs are actually dark, when he is not freshly clipped and he has 'varnish marks' on his face,etc.....

A near leopard, has too much white for a 'blanket with spots' but not enough white for a leopard. The head and sometimes upper neck is darker.. there may be spots through out but the basicly the head and neck are darker, not white based with clear spots and the legs are always dark, not white with spots. I guess as comparable to the snowcap, fewcap and fewspot, there are horses with blankets and spots, near leopards and then leopards. Again I will post pics of these three types.

A true leopard has a white body, including legs, with spots all over.

Below are what might be a typical blanket with spots (pics 1 and 2), near leopards (pics 3 &4) and leopards.

 

[AppyLover2]

Laurie is that last one a Plaudit horse? Except for placement of his spots he looks exactly like my guy.

 

[ohmt]

Thank you for posting the pictures and descriptions laurie! Now quick question about the filly. I did originally think she was snowcap, then she started to lose all of her color. It was different than previous snowcaps i'd had so I sent a bunch of pictures to someone working on the lp gene testing to see what their opinion was. The lady I had been talking to said she was fewcap. I did not have a chance to compare her with others yet to see. I just went with it. I think I might send them some updated pictures of her as a yearling. What you said definitely makes sense. Either way I love her

 

[HGFarm]

I dont want to bore anyone to death, LOL

Appies can also carry more than one pattern. You could have a varnish roan, that also has a blanket with spots. (Reasonably good example in the pic below)

Or you can have roans with spots throughout the main part of the body. (2nd pic)

Blankets come in all sizes from just a small blanket over the rear (pics below), to blankets clear up to the withers.....

Spots over the rear is just that, spots over the rear, not a blanket. Here are a couple of examples of that pattern.

 

[Becky]

Spots over the rear is just that, spots over the rear, not a blanket.

So you don't think that minimal expression 'butt spotting' is just a minimally marked blanket pattern?

It seems to me that varnish is really common in miniatures, but maybe not as much in full size horses?

 

[HGFarm]

OHMT, when your filly was born, did she have dark pig hairs but showed white underneath up on her neck and shoulder area? She may just be roaning out heavily in the front, which most snowcap Minis seem to do.

I will attach a couple of pics of some fewcap foals. You can see at birth their neck and shoulders are covered with colored hair, but you can clearly see the white coat underneath from the moment they are born. It is something that is already there, not a 'roaning' factor from dark hair- it is already 'white' underneath. But because of the dark legs, darker head and other dark areas, these are not fewspots.

 

[ohmt]

Yep! She was born with big white rings around her eyes and had the pig hairs with white underneath around her shoulder/lower neck area. Does that mean she is just varnishing? As of right now she looks like the first foal you posted a pic of without as much dark hair on her neck and head.

 

[HGFarm]

I have never seen so many roan Appaloosas in my life as I have with the Miniatures!!! LOL The white spots over the rear could be an 'attempted' blanket that didnt make it, hahahaha, but in a registry description of this type of pattern, it is just listed as spots over the rear, or something similar to that- it really isnt a 'blanket'.

Again, it seems in the Minis, it is SO hard to get a vivid pattern that stays and doesnt roan out with time. It seems hard to get a blanket and spots that will STAY that way, or a nice hip pattern, etc.. that stays that way. And I just dont know why all the Mini snowcaps roan out to just about lose where the blanket started and where it ended...... I have had snowcaps in the full sized and also in the POA's that didnt roan out at all and their pattern was very vivid and distinct and stayed that way even at several years old.

I would love to be able to get patterns like this on the Minis, where the dark part of the body STAYS dark and they dont roan out where that sharp pattern sort of disappears!

 

[Maple Hollow Farm]

Ok I couldnt resist replying to the fact that pinto brings out appy pattern because I totally believe that to be true after my last two foals by my snowflake mare!

My yearling pintaloosa colt has a gorgeous big spotted blanket and he has very sharp color with no roaning...yet...but hopefully wont LOL! I know Im probably gonna get yelled at for breeding appy to pinto but I love it

!

And when the same mare was bred to a leopard she had this....a solid black filly although she is already getting roan hairs and mottled skin and striped hooves!

Also I am LOVING all of the appy pictures!!!

 

[Ridgerunner]

Thanx for starting this thread, Becky! I LOVE it! So many gorgeous appies to look at, and so much good info! If you get tired of that mare, you can send her over to Missouri!

I think the varnish and snowflake genes are connected some way. I have one mare who roaned out first, then developed snowflakes. I also have a 6 year old mare that had NO white whatsoever till she was 4,then started developing a very unique snowflake pattern on her hips. Now she has them all over! As for you stallion, my 2 year old was born with that pattern, stayed the same as a yearling, then this spring shed out with a HUGE blanket with spots! His mane and tail are now growing out white, so I expect him to shed out next spring as a near leopard. Once you start breeding appies, you'll be hooked! They're sooo much fun! Christmas comes every spring!

 

[ChromeLuvr]

I am loving this thread!!