Biggest question asked and talked about at amhr natls

[kaykay]

Jill its pretty simple. I am not willing to bet my horses life on a protest. Would you bet Destiny's??? Knowing you my guess is you wouldnt. People who werent there can laugh about it but its a very real threat. Also I was at amha nationals last year when a protest was filed. I feel so bad for the person who protested. What she went thru was horrible and I saw it first hand.

So really protesting height in amha or amhr nationals is not an option. AGain I dont show AMHA so i am not going to take that on. Ill leave that to people who do show AMHA. If people felt they could protest believe me a bunch would have been filed.

My point in posting here was to urge people who were there to contact amhr and have your voice heard! contact the president, your director etc. I plan on doing like fran and contacting all of the above. You guys know i am not one to just gripe and not do anything about it. But I cant do it alone. It speaks volumes if everyone who was there and saw the oversize horses showing speaks out against it. But it wont do anything if its just one or two.

Spazkat you are exactly right! But how do we go about getting that done?? Its almost impossible because we know they will never change the way a mini is measured. And I feel sure AHSA is not going to come in and measure at the last hair.

Minimor i suspect lavern did hear about the threats but would love ot hear her side of it

 

[Jill]

Do you think I'd risk Destiny's life?

If it is honest to God that bad, then I don't know what to say but I do know that "we" get worked up and tee-ed off about this EVERY SINGLE YEAR and nothing changes. We could go back to this time last year and read the same exact opinions.

 

[kaykay]

so jill you tell me what we do then?? Yes it is honest to god that bad. I cannot tell you how many people told us not to protest or we would find our horses dead in their stall. People we didnt even know were talking about it in the stands.

Again my point was not to flame etc. My point is TO CONTACT AMHR AND LET IT BE KNOWN THAT YOU ARE NOT HAPPY ABOUT THE MEASURING!!! Dont just type here, let your voice be heard!!

I guess becaues it happens every year we should do nothing and not talk about it?? Where will that get us?? If this trend continues we may as well do away with being a height registry. If a 40" horse can show now then I guess its okay to go to 42" next year. If nothing is done people will continue to push the limits even more.

 

[Ginia]

I'm going to refer back to Spazkat's post with agreement from this direction. The simplest and best way to avoid issues like this from coming up, either in AMHA or AMHR, would be for both of them to become affiliated with the American Horse Show Association, it's approved judges and stewards. I was involved with Arabs (and Arabs only) for 20+ years, attended and participated in shows both as a spectator, exhibitor, and behind the lines in the show offices on a few occasions. This was pretty much my only experience with "horse shows" as such, with the exception of a few little local open County Fair shows. Later I attended other rated "breed shows", we won't mention which breeds or diciplines, but they were independant from AHSA, and was surprised and dismayed at the lack of organization, scheduling and professionalism that I had taken granted before.

As far as I know, and it's been a number of years since I was a member, the only drawback for the exhibitors/horse owners is a small additional fee usually added to their Breed Asso. membership to cover AHSA dues. It was at that time quite small. I don't know what all is involved as far as the obligations of the breed association itself, but our registrys are both large, and surely if the Arab registry, the Saddlebred registry, the Morgan registry, etc., can afford it, we could too.

I'm sorry, this has gotten to be quite a "windy" post, but has been on my mind for a few years as I watch our rated shows call intermission at odd times so the judges can go potty (or take a smoke break, or whatever the heck else they seem to disappear for an unduly long and unscheduled time to go do), and for the starting and ending time of show sessions (morning, afternoon, and evening) to be on a sliding schedule that really leaves a LOT to be desired. With AHSA, deviations from the posted schedule result in fines. Period.

Again, apologys to all for the length of this "offering".

 

[HGFarm]

Being a measuring steward is a tough job. I have never done it but have seen cases when 'big breeders' or trainers bring oversizes horses to show, and when they dont measure in, are totally 'in the stewards face' about it and cause such a scene and problems. Who wants to put up with that?

I can see that being a measuring steward would be a position that would make everyone (or many) hate you.

They are pretty strict here with measuring... and I can't imagine some of these horses with a 2" different being allowed in a class.

Unfortunately I have seen this happen with other height breeds as well, like POA.

The problem is, the same folks have probably been getting away with it for years. WHO is going to take the job to measure, and the CRAP that comes with it- cause you know these folks are going to explode- when it comes to measuring at Nationals? Nobody gives the measuring people credit for what they do right, only what they do wrong.

What rule could be passed to fix this problem? I do not see anyone with ideas on how to fix it. I myself, have no idea.

Perhaps a panel of five people in the measuring area, that will witness and reconfirm what they are seeing. Perhaps MAKING them stand their horses up correctly to be measured- not on their knees, stretched out like camels, or poking them in the back.

I never touch mine- what they get is what they get. I go in and stand them up squarely and that is how I measure mine.

Personally, I would be one to volunteer for this if it is possible. I dont know how they pick who is going to do the measuring... but then if I am doing that, I can't show then? Could someone else measure and show mine? I am not sure of those rules.

Hahahaha, screaming at me will get nowhere- either the horse measures in or it doesnt. :no:

We must come up with a way to make it FAIR and make sure the rules are followed. It does no good to pass 20 rules if no one backs them up.

What a shame....

 

[spazkat]

As far as I know, and it's been a number of years since I was a member, the only drawback for the exhibitors/horse owners is a small additional fee usually added to their Breed Asso. membership to cover AHSA dues. It was at that time quite small. I don't know what all is involved as far as the obligations of the breed association itself, but our registrys are both large, and surely if the Arab registry, the Saddlebred registry, the Morgan registry, etc., can afford it, we could too.

I'm sorry, this has gotten to be quite a "windy" post, but has been on my mind for a few years as I watch our rated shows call intermission at odd times so the judges can go potty (or take a smoke break, or whatever the heck else they seem to disappear for an unduly long and unscheduled time to go do), and for the starting and ending time of show sessions (morning, afternoon, and evening) to be on a sliding schedule that really leaves a LOT to be desired. With AHSA, deviations from the posted schedule result in fines. Period.

I noticed this too when I went to showing ASPC/ AMHR shows from the saddlebred hackney circuit. I was amazing at the juggling that went on at shows due to pressure from exhibitors, etc. Things like moving classes at the last minute so people could leave early (like 1 trailer load... not large numbers of exhibitors), unscheduled breaks and resheduled breaks... all with little notice to other exhibitors.

Unfortunately I dont think the majority of the AMHR members would go for this change. It does mean additional fees.. both in annual membership and per show (for the stewards, drug tests which they randomly do, etc). Minis would undoubtedly be issued "pony cards" like all other equine under 14.2 hands... and USEQ measures at the withers. While this would be a big change I can say that in years and years of showing AHSA / USEQ I *never* had more variation in measurements than what could be accounted for in shoes/ trims on the pony..... very unlike my AMHR measurements. Trainers likely wouldnt go for it either, as it subjects them to paying "professional membership" fees and also leaves them open to binding suspensions and fines/ penalties for infractions.

 

[Reble]

I have never been to the Nationals, so just wondering, how many horses in the class would you say was over?

I do believe this starts at our local shows, and we just talk about it.

:new_shocked: These people end up at the Nationals.

Anyway of Boycotting the class / I believe it should be dealt with right than and there?

 

[Cathy_H]

Perhaps a panel of five people in the measuring area, that will witness and reconfirm what they are seeing. Perhaps MAKING them stand their horses up correctly to be measured- not on their knees, stretched out like camels, or poking them in the back.

Or even a panel of three, but then you would have to pay three people or have someone from the office that is already being paid observe...... To me this sounds like a good idea - why can it not be implemented by our directors...................... One reason some people won't protest is that several of the exhibitors are judges themselves...... You know you will never place again if you protest that person then show under him at a show. I've heard judges stick together... You help me then I'll help you & you know all their buddy judges will hear of the protestor.

 

[Feather]

I show both a & r. Measuring is a very SORE SPOT currently in both groups. It was so bad last year at the World; its show numbers are way down this year. A trainers' wife phically threathened a protestor & then their trainer, out of fear, refused to show their horse shortly before it was to enter the ring.

The protested horse had an ACCIDENT and was dead soon afterwards.

Therefore; many people dropped their shows this year; LOOK at their numbers!

When we talked to the measurer at the World the reply was to learn how to make your horse measure smaller like the "big boys do"! They can push the horses back down & measure several inches shorter UNTIL the trainer allows that horse to relax.

UNTIL the measurement method is changed to even the playing field; and independent persons doing the measurement(like Referees) are in place; IT WILL NOT HAPPEN!!!The handler must not be able to touch the horse before, doing, & after measurement to stop current practices! A NEW FOOL PROOF METHOD needs delveloped. IT CAN BE DONE.

The price to file a protest just is not worth it in terms of showing again, therefore, it is WORTHLESS!

Also, a little research & you will find most Judges are trainers or extrainers that still owe ALOT of favortism.

I play the game & do well; BUT no it isn't right & only the members can get it changed when they have had enough!

This is not a perfect world.

 

[kaykay]

well fran called amhr to complain and they said this is the first complaint they have heard of regarding measuring at nationals. So what does that tell us all?? THAT WE HAVE TO CALL AND TELL THEM. I will be calling monday. Im just to tired today with just getting back and being on mare stare

Please everyone that was there call amhr!

 

[Leeana]

kaykay Posted Today, 02:48 PM

so jill you tell me what we do then?? Yes it is honest to god that bad. I cannot tell you how many people told us not to protest or we would find our horses dead in their stall. People we didnt even know were talking about it in the stands.

I am VERY disturbed by this comment! I would be scared to death if someone would have told me if i protested or said a word my horse would be dead in their stall! I think we really need to stop bc it has gone way to far for way to long. I wish i could have a say and call amhr like some other have but i dont think it is my place since i was not there and the whole 2 rated shows we did this year dont help out much, nor would an 18 year olds say have much effect. I just cannot believe they would take it to the point where they would murder a horse. I am just blown away!

Leeana H.

 

[Crossbuck Farms]

I completely agree with the hieght. But I did come away with three national titles. My stud yearling was in 30" under and he measured at 30" and there some even more bigger looking than him.

 

[Feather1414]

I think that it's so unbelievable ridiculous what people do to their horses.

I have an issue with measuring... since all last year Dealer measured 33 or 33 and a quarter. I applied for permanant registration each show, never got anything...

This year at his ONLY show, he measured 34 with long feet - the farrier saw him at the show actually, and I got a permanent card with a 34 inch measurement... I tore it up...

Anyways, at Nationals last year I too saw some of the measuring dilemas. I did touch my horse, but I covered his eyes since he was still leary of the measuring stick. Peanut pulled a 36 just as he had all during the show year.

 

[runamuk]

I don't have the money to go to nationals but I have nothing to lose by protesting as I do not breed/show etc...... I have seen and heard measuring issues for so long now that it is like a drippy faucet(just tune it out).......AMHA has several national champions who wouldn't measure in (done properly) even if they were cut off at the knee

: yes it is that bad.......yes you can teach a horse to crouch under a measuring stick without ever laying hands on it during measuring......I have seen many horses easily lose 2 inches simply by being trimmed and poked.......heck I can get my own horses to measure with differences of easily 2 inches at any given time.......and last hair of the mane is so much more subjective..not too mention it knocks off at least an inch of wither in the average horse........ I have no real reason to even care except I like the breed and it would be so nice to see it taken more seriously......jmo

This simple solution would be for minis to become a part of the USA Equestrain (AHSA)... all their shows use USAE stewards. Of course they do things like measure horses at the withers, and drug test also. The stweards are totally independant of the show, and have much more authority on rulings than AMHR stweards do.

great idea spaz......and it would also give the BREED so much more credibility.........

 

[attwoode]

It's interesting to me that with so many that are highly skilled at training horses, that is is so difficult to see that training is exactly what needs to be done with some trainers. Consistency and persistence is the only way to make it happen. Stewards should be treated with respect and when someone doesn't agree with a measurement (because they expect them to measure shorter at a show than in reality) then that person should follow procedures politely or get thrown out of the show and possibly banned from the next show after that. Quickly the message becomes clear - don't bring big horses to the show! I also think that anyone should be able to place one protest at any show. If the protester does not have a horse in the class it just makes the protest that much more legit, because they have nothing to gain.

What happens when a child throws a tantrum and then gets what he wants? He throws another fit the next time he wants something because he has been rewarded in the past. Is this not the same thing? Every time we reward this bad behavior the problem will get worse!

Measuring is not that difficult. I find it frustrating that this under-measuring is not limited to show horses. It extends to horses that are being advertised for sale. Is it just me or does it seem like it is standard to subtract 1/2 to a full inch (or more) off of the true measurement? I believe this is done because people want to compare apples to apples rather than comparing their horses at actual height to horses that are being under estimated. An inch should be the same distance when measuring a mini as it is for measuring anything else. Maybe our horses should be measured in "mini inches", which would be a tenth shorter than a standard inch!

: I'm sure there will always be some level of politics at any horse show, but can't we all at least agree to the length of an inch?

I think that people at shows should stop trying to justify why they don't protest by saying that it is because something bad will happen to them or others who try. Heck, I'd be scared too, but the only thing that gives a threat any value is fear. Imagine if the person making this threat actually gets to the point of following through and nobody says a thing. By addressing it upfront and taking them to task, at least everyone will know that the threat was made. Instead of attempting to disarm the individual voice of those who want to do what is right, we should band together to do something positive knowing that there is strength in numbers.

I personally have not been the victim of showing in a class with oversized horses, but I have witnessed it happening at my very first show and every one I've gone to since. BTW - I think many classes have horses that are measured fairly. It is reasonable to think that measuring could be a little off by a 1/4 inch or so and we should put faith in stewards and our competition that they are in the right classes. The absurd ones are the ones that we all should make a point to stop.

 

[littlearab]

I have been reading all the posts about this issue of cheating.Either measuring or politics.

Let me say first . I have never nor will I ever show at nationals. Too poor... too far away..no time.... LOL Not excuses facts..

But this does not mean I do not care allot about this issue.. I do. It cuts me to the bone.

All I have to say to some so called horsemen and ladies is....You must be proud!

If your horse or the horse you are hired to show is over 38 or too tall for whatever class your putting them, you know it.

Who do you think your fooling??

Believe me everyone who has a horse who is over height knows it is. Most everyone watching knows it. Everyone in the class knows it. They know you cheated to get in that class.

Until the person who measures the horse has NOTHING to lose or gain you will see cheating. I say bring in someone to measure that does not even own a miniature horse.Someone who could care less who wins. Like it been siad anyone can read a stick, they do not need to know everything about miniature,jut how to read the stick..

Also tape the measuring.Good lord we tape our mares foaling but for some reason will not tape measuring in at a show,just silly. IMHO

Also if you are one of the people intimadating others I would say much more then shame on you.. I'd say it down right evil. And you know it,if not your sick. :new_shocked:

Why in the world would anyone behave like this have? One little word MONEY!!

And as long as they make MONEY they will keep cheating.If everyone knows so and so cheats stop buying thier horses or horses trained and shown by them... simple..(too simple I guess)

I also belive there is ALLOT of the YOU HELP ME I HELP YOU going on.

One gal told me once she had a horse she wanted to get his HOF and she paid a judge to give it to him, by paying allot($$$$$$) for another horse she purchused from him. All she had to do was haul her horse to all the shows he judged for a year and bingo he had it.. Seeing that horse I do believe she had to pay for his HOF. LOL She told me the only way to win is to play the game and PAY YOUR DUES..meaning buying from that or any other judge you want to place your horse.

For heaven sakes it not that hard people. just simple things.. simple changes.. problem solved.

I know some will say who is she to say this.. well I'm a member of AMHR that's who. I will never be well know. And after this maybe not well liked, by some people. Oh will..

But being one of the new kids on the block I have no problem calling it as I see it.. Some poeple cheat and everyone knows it.. as long as we do nothing it will go on. You can't stop it all ,but we could stop the stuuf that is so out in the open it seems almost a joke.

If this is in deed a hieght breed.. lets be adults about it.. if our horse is 33" or 39" saying it's 30" or 36" is cheating you are fooling no one.

 

[TangoMango]

I know this may seem naive, but as spectators, cant something be done? I have never been to the big shows, so I dont know how it works. But if you are watching a class were an obviously too tall horse wins, couldnt they be booed? I would think that a large number of spectators booing a win would turn some heads. Maybe?

 

[Jill]

Yeah, Kay, I don't really know what we should do but I still am unimpressed with this annual thread. If people do not step up and say something to officials at the show, I do not see it changing.

If so many people are upset there in the stands at the show, then maybe that was the time to organize the forces and get a big group to go up and protest measuring issue at the show, vs. the annual online debate that eventually starts to smell like sour grapes from many who reply.

 

[kaykay]

I just will never believe in the "go along with it and dont talk about it" theory. That for sure does not get anything done. If everyone that was there and saw the oversize horses would just call amhr and complain that i believe would be enough to get them to take a hard look at what is going on. I will do my part by contacting amhr and the president and my director. i was going to do a rule change but in hindsight adding more rules wont matter as the rules arent being enforced now.

And I said in my very first post that I was happy with how my horses placed. So no sour grapes here. This was my very first time toshow in a national show and ill be brutally honest and say my nerves got the best of me LOL. But I am very proud of how he did regardless :bgrin

 

[Minimor]

Actually Jill this isn't an annual thing. There wasn't a word about this issue after Nationals last year. The height issue didn't come up until after the height protest was made at Worlds later in the fall.

Frankly I don't see any better place than this to discuss a matter like this. How better to hear from a large number of people and maybe come up with some idea of what the masses can do to try and change things so that this form of cheating doesn't continue. Maybe nothing will come of it, but then again maybe the discussion will start someone thinking and that will lead to a plan of action that will actually work? I see no reason to not talk about it. I've personally seen no sour grapes here on this thread.

And I'm not really sure that "sour grapes" is a term that applies in a case like this. The discussion is about horses that are over the size limit for the class they are showing in; whether they win or lose, there are horses out there that are too tall to be competing in the classes they are shown in. Commenting on that fact is not sour grapes. It's discussing the truth. There's been no mention of specific classes, nor or specific horses.

People cannot step up and say something to officials at the show; those officials will simply say something to the effect of "if you have a complaint then go and pay your fee and make your protest" and that puts us right back at the beginning of this--people cannot protest for fear of someone doing harm to themselves or (more likely) their horses.