Bond / Komokos

[MiniHoofBeats]

Just one more comment before I fall back to not posting on here anymore with the criticism and bias opinions..

Because I see the topic of dwarfs is flaming up on the board again...

If you all are so disgusted with the dwarfs being bred (as am I) then why aren't we as a community banning the BOND and KOMOKOS lines that we are all VERY WELL AWARE OF that were specifically breeding for dwarfs?

All of you who own Bond bred, and Komokos bred horses are purposely breeding lines with dwarfism in them and yet you stand up saying "my horse is perfect" when deep in those genes, that horse has just as much potential for creating the sad little dwarf you so much do not ever want to see.

I do want to make note to all those who accused me that I have stayed FAR AWAY from BOND and KOMOKOS specifically because of this...it is the SMART choice. I don't care how many "national top tens" or "champions" came of those lines...those horses carry the gene.

If you want to stop breeding dwarfs. Stop breeding Bond and Komokos.

JMHO and since this is a free-will board there you all go.

Sorry Mary Lou if this causes too much flaming delete it...I wont be back to post for a long time because i've seen too many people turn two-faced over this topic and it personally disgusts me.

And THANK YOU to all who have written me in private in my support. I truly love each and every one of you!

 

[Tony]

I am sorry, but I have to step in here and correct your information. Mr. Bond and Mr. Bridges did NOT breed FOR dwarfs. They definitely got some, as anyone who has a large herd, will have from time to time. They were trying to reduce size and may have used some horses that most of us, if not all, would not use today. Today there are THOUSANDS of miniatures from which to choose. Back in the late 70's and early 80's there were literally just hundreds, and only a few at that, and very, very few were available for sale.

Vern Brewer and I travelled thousands of miles trying to find every miniature that was available for sale. We made three or four trips to the midwest and southeast, looking at every farm that we could find. From those trips, we probably bought less than thirty head over a period of three years. Most that had any quality were irreplaceable to their owners and they knew that. We found many nice horses and many not so nice.

Mr. Bond did use a few of his dwarfs that were not so bad, but he was NOT trying to breed dwarfs, he was trying to reduce the size and many of his mares were what would be considered B division, which of course, did not exist at the time. He developed some absolutely beautiful horses, especially beautiful heads and very colorful. To negate that fact is, in my opinion, immature, short-sighted, and unforgiveable.

Joel Bridges was very careful in his breeding in comparison. I am not aware of any definite dwarfs being bred, on the stallion side. Some of the mares definitely leaned in that direction, but many, many did not. In fact they were some of the tiniest and most correct that could be found anywhere in the world at that time in our history. He also worked on miniaturizing appaloosas using larger app mares and developed some nice ones for the time. He had some animals that would be completely competitive, even today. To accuse him of deliberately breeding for dwarfs, is absolutely libelous. To accuse the "bloodlines", of course they are FARM NAMES, of being the reason for dwarfs now, is at best a blantant misstatement.

I know that I am, in some opinions, "an old dinosaur", but this "old dinosaur" will continue to roar when opinions are expressed as FACT, that are the opposite of FACT. I had the priviledge of visiting BOTH farms four or five times. I saw, usually, all, or almost all of their horses. I don't think that there is a person on this board, who, if they had accompanied me, would have been able to visit, without finding one, several, or many horses that they would have loved to take home, even in 2007.

History is history. Facts are facts. And opinions can sometimes be wrong, especially when taken as fact. You are of course welcome to them, after all we do have free speech. But there are far too many visitors here who take opinions as facts and the more they are repeated, people believe them. Then history turns to fiction, and that is a disservice to every person who cares about a miniature horse. And I, for one, DO!!!

I am NOT EXTINCT, yet.

 

[kaykay]

:aktion033: tony!!!

Steph the thing is you need to research and ask questions of people who have been doing this for a long time. Dont get mad instead educate yourself!

I am constantly learning new things about miniature horses and shetland ponies all the time. When people like Tony and others who have been doing this many many years talk.....I listen. You dont have to always agree but you have to be open to learning.

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

By the way I do want to note that I do know of some fantastic Bond and Komokos bred horses...i'm not personally telling everyone to STOP breeding them i'm just saying. If everyone is so fed up with dwarves being bred, why not nip it in the bud and stop breeding the lines we know carry dwarf genes?

Not telling you all to stop breeding and I definitely am not saying those of you who own Bond/Komokos have horrible horses. I don't stoop so low as to judge other peoples horses or programs.

Tony, I have high respect for you and always will, thanks for stepping in with a note!

 

[Witts Mini Horse Ranch]

Thank you Tony! I don't make it here often, and had not seen the previous discussion and was like OMG, I am so proud of my Bond horses. I respect your knowlegde, we have never met but I feel I know you from the many stories Jean (Glasgow) Marcum, Rockin J in Ada OK, told me. I miss her so very much (passed away Jan. 07). I wish I could have been there back in the day! She had GREAT admiration for you.

I got off the subject, sorry, but since I am off the subject.....my avator is LITTLE AMERICA TEX BONITA and her 07 colt, out of SHENANDOAH PAINTS DIABLO another dinosaur farm, Bonita is my pride and Joy, Jean made it possible for me to purchase her. Bonita is now 11 years old, and with each year, she is getting more spots on her back.......I think the "TEX" is coming out in her YAHOO

 

[Little Wee Horse Farm]

I just wanted to remind folks that because horses have the same prefix does not mean they are related in any way. MANY times, just came from the same farm/breeder.

I have sold many pairs as breeding pairs. Both members of the pair had the same "Little Wee " prefix, but they were not related in any way. totally separate bloodlines. So, to count out all horses with the same prefix just doesn't make any sense.

Komokos & Bond bred "little" horses, that's for sure. But it doesn't mean they are all bred from the same blood. If you know a particular horse to be/show dwarf, you might want to avoid a horse that has the suspect horse in its bloodline, but to dismiss a whole breeding program, no.

sorry, those are the facts as I know them.

 

[kaykay]

Steph what you are saying in your last post makes no sense. Your first post is very specific in saying that these breeders bred FOR dwarfs which is just not true. You really need to think about what you are posting. And again before you fly off the handle try to listen and learn from other people who have been doing this a lifetime!

If you all are so disgusted with the dwarfs being bred (as am I) then why aren't we as a community banning the BOND and KOMOKOS lines that we are all VERY WELL AWARE OF that were specifically breeding for dwarfs?
All of you who own Bond bred, and Komokos bred horses are purposely breeding lines with dwarfism in them and yet you stand up saying "my horse is perfect" when deep in those genes, that horse has just as much potential for creating the sad little dwarf you so much do not ever want to see.

I do want to make note to all those who accused me that I have stayed FAR AWAY from BOND and KOMOKOS specifically because of this...it is the SMART choice. I don't care how many "national top tens" or "champions" came of those lines...those horses carry the gene.

If you want to stop breeding dwarfs. Stop breeding Bond and Komokos.

JMHO and since this is a free-will board there you all go.

Sorry Mary Lou if this causes too much flaming delete it...I wont be back to post for a long time because i've seen too many people turn two-faced over this topic and it personally disgusts me.

And THANK YOU to all who have written me in private in my support. I truly love each and every one of you!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Oh GOOD GIEF- I have been on this board a while now and I know people who have been on here a lot longer- tell me, People of the Forum, have you EVER- [SIZE=12pt]EVER[/SIZE] heard ANYONE say their horse was perfect?????

Stephanie, I have to say this, sweetheart, you need to grow up a bit, you really do.

You cannot throw all your toys out of the pram every time someone tells you the truth for your own good, you will end up very very lonely .

And breeding some very second class horses.

You start off knowing a little and learning.

That is where you start.

You cannot start knowing everything, that just does not happen and acting as if it is a fact does not help either.

I am not attacking you, I really am not.

I am trying to show you the way forward, the way to progress.

Digging in your heels and sticking your head firmly in the sand is NOT the way forward.

Good Luck , whatever you decide to do, but, if I were you, I would stick around and keep asking and learning.

 

[Leeana]

There is much more involved then just bloodlines when it comes to dwarfs being produced. You cannot just take all the blaim and link it back to two bloodlines or two farms breeding programs.

Look at the bloodlines behind the 'Bond' horses ...not just the horses that carry the Bond name. Thats the problem, not every 'Bond' horse had the same breeding and bloodlines, that is the only problem. Its more then the horse that carries the Bond name or ANY name for it, its the names behind that.

I personally adore the bond bloodline, some incrediable horses came from that bloodline and a few of my faverites.

Tony has been there and done that. I see where your coming from steph, dont get me wrong, but i just wanted to throw in my little opinion for what its worth

.

I just think its more then bloodlines when it comes to dwarfs.

 

[user 488]

Joel Bridges was very careful in his breeding in comparison. I am not aware of any definite dwarfs being bred, on the stallion side. Some of the mares definitely leaned in that direction, but many, many did not. In fact they were some of the tiniest and most correct that could be found anywhere in the world at that time in our history. He also worked on miniaturizing appaloosas using larger app mares and developed some nice ones for the time. He had some animals that would be completely competitive, even today. To accuse him of deliberately breeding for dwarfs, is absolutely libelous. To accuse the "bloodlines", of course they are FARM NAMES, of being the reason for dwarfs now, is at best a blantant misstatement.

Living in Florida I had the priviledge of visiting Joel Bridges a number of times. I purchased our first mini for our daugther back in 1982. I throughly enjoyed seeing his farm and his horses. He did have some beautiful minis and his farm was amazing. And yes, I could have bought a dozen or so on any given day.

Please Tony......you are far from and old dinosaur

Carol

 

[runamuk]

Stephanie I put my little horse out there for the forum to critique for a very good reason. We are only now beginning to see and acknowledge some very specific traits that MAY be linked to dwarfism. People on this board have been at the forefront of taking the dwarves out of the closet. I purposely left out names and bloodlines. It serves no purpose to start a bloodline/breeding program bashing frenzy. It does serve a purpose to actually show examples of horses believed to exhibit subtle indications of dwarfism because many have only ever seen the extreme dwarves. To toss entire breeding programs out the window because they had a few dwarves is plain silly. It is well known that there was a time when less scrupulous actions were taken by some, like assigning a winning stallions name to a pedigree when the sire was not known. This practice was NEVER limited to miniature horses....to date there are still heated flamefests over a few arabian lines

:

: we now have DNA and PQ which helps with the honesty of pedigrees but it isn't foolproof. If we can begin to identify dwarfism in its subtle form we may help find the genes responsible and identify them leading to dna tests.

I was lucky in that my little guy was very healthy and had good teeth, with diligent farrier work he should live a long and healthy life, other dwarves are not so lucky, and many mares are lost trying to deliver dwarves it is something no one wants to go through. If one can see the signs that would make a breeder hesitate and think before breeding, that is a good thing.

So you spent money on a horse that turned out to not be what you may have thought, I am sure almost everyone on this board has also done this at least once.

:

Breeding is a tough gig, there are no easy choices and can be severe consequences, anything that can give you an edge in having a good outcome should be welcomed. Even if it is something you may not wish to hear.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

By the way I do want to note that I do know of some fantastic Bond and Komokos bred horses...i'm not personally telling everyone to STOP breeding them i'm just saying. If everyone is so fed up with dwarves being bred, why not nip it in the bud and stop breeding the lines we know carry dwarf genes?

Not telling you all to stop breeding and I definitely am not saying those of you who own Bond/Komokos have horrible horses. I don't stoop so low as to judge other peoples horses or programs.

Tony, I have high respect for you and always will, thanks for stepping in with a note!

Well the bottom line here is would I have bred Bond tiny Tim.. NO.. that would not have been MY choice however well all have and make different choices. But he is ONE horse not the entire Bond farm Line

Bottom line is when you ask for an opinion you are going ot get many. It took me getting my feelings hurt- losing some money in what I thought were good investments. really learning not going by who has a big farm or has been doing this for years but really listening and learning (with plenty more to learn)

But your right I cant control or make choices for others I can only do what works for me and after having a dwarf filly(by the way I bought the mare bred to a National Champion Halter horse) I didnt chalk it up to oh well has to happen to everyone sometime I chalked it up to lesson learned in what I personally choose to look for in breeding stock- I am still making changes and now after over 11 years have realized... I still have so much to learn I am opting to not breed for a while till I feel comfortable and confident in my decisions.

I cant complain about the problem if I am to blind to see I have been part of it.

I am grateful to those that helped me then and help me today to see what sometimes I really dont want to but once I am open... it is so glaring and obvious.

You are though correct only you can decide what is working for you and your program and if your vet is at all helpful to you or trying to hurt your feelings.

 

[crponies]

I think people forget the laws of genetics sometimes too. Just because a parent possessed a certain gene does not guarantee it is passed on to the offspring unless the parent has it in homozygous form. So, to assume that all the descendants of say Bond Tiny Tim have the dwarf gene is not necessarily a good assumption. They may have it or they may not. That is why it is so important to educate yourself on dwarf indicators even in minimal form and also to do research into ancestors far back and close up. See if that horse's sire and/or dam ever produced a dwarf. See about siblings producing dwarfs. Of course, that information is not necessarily easy to find. I just wanted to remind you that genes are not always passed on (I think most people know this when it comes to colors but really it is true of any trait).

 

[Sun Runner Stables]

Tony and Fizz! :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: We All stand on the shoulders of the great's who came before us!! Even if we Know more now... you can't just throw entire Lines out! Goodness!

Fizz esp, thanks for saying what needed to be said so well. You did it with Ever so much more class then I ever could have.

I don't know all the backstory, but it sounds like someone paid alot for what turned out to be not so much what they thought.

Hey, we've almost All been there. I Know I have. H*ll if I knew Then what I know Now, things would be Far different on Many levels.

But you're gonna get your teeth kicked in doing this, esp if you want to breed, and do it Right. Many of you may notice I backed out of the breeding end. I wasn't producing nice enough horses for me to continue. I kept some of my decent stock, and am waiting on a few 2 year olds to grow up. In the mean time, I'll have No mini foals, and I'm more then happy with that.

This was the place that taught me so much, and to flounce around saying you're leaving cause someone didn't agree with you is silly. Stay (Lurk even) and learn.

 

[runamuk]

But you're gonna get your teeth kicked in doing this, esp if you want to breed, and do it Right.

Great analogy :bgrin I spent 10 years researching, learning and then finally bred, I produced 1 foal and guess what.....it was not what I planned at all. I have not bred since. I doubt I will ever breed again. I only have 2 mini's now. I cannot do it the way I want to so I cut my losses and have moved on

:

 

[Loess Hills]

Thank you Dinosaurs, ie. mature experienced people, who have knowledge in breeding and selecting horses for outstanding qualities!

One can spend a lifetime learning about miniature horses, breed, raise them.....show under a large number of judges at a national level......... to have some understanding of certain lines.

To take a paintbrush and paint all Bond and Komoko horses as dwarfs shows a high degree of ignorance. Stephanie you have never had a foal born at your "farm", and yet you are classing yourself as an expert on certain "lines". Until you've had a large number of foals born, watched them grow and develop, then try to select the most desirable characteristics to reproduce, you cannot even begin to walk in the shoes of those early breeders striving to produce a "miniature horse".

Learning means making mistakes, striving to get better, networking with other more knowledgeable horse people to develop a solid breeding program.

And keeping your mind Open to understanding the history of the Miniature Horse.

 

[Miniv]

Komokos & Bond bred "little" horses, that's for sure. But it doesn't mean they are all bred from the same blood. If you know a particular horse to be/show dwarf, you might want to avoid a horse that has the suspect horse in its bloodline, but to dismiss a whole breeding program, no.

Very well put.

MA

 

[slv]

Great post Tony. I know that you have been able to go places and see things that most of us will never see.

You are a true miniature horse historian and that is so much needed in todays time. A lot of people do not realize how limited the numbers of miniature horses were twenty five or thirty years ago. There is so much more to choose from in todays time and therefore no reason to breed horses with dwarf characteristics.

I read the other post entirely. Unfortunatly some people get offended when the truth is told. I think it is somewhat like going to college and falling asleep during class. There is so much to be learned here and so many people with years of experience to teach us.

I say keep telling the truth and hopefully if one person learns from it, it was worth it. One thing I never do is lie to myself. We have all made bad purchases but it is best to admit it and go on. There are several CUTE horses out there that are not suitable for breeding. Oh you can try it, but the results can be fatal.

When I first started, I bought a CUTE little 29 inch mare with very short legs. That wasn't enough, I wanted a foal so what did STUPID me do, but buy a CUTE little 27 inch stallion, with short legs and take the plunge.

The result was my little mare going into labor, throwing herself into walls and rolling over and over. The vet came and cut out the worst thing I ever saw. Huge head, no neck, legs all twisted inward. The worst part, I lost my mare. I have had a very hard time with that. That was well before I ever knew that there was a forum and great people like you guys to teach me something.

Unfortunatly it is way too late for my little Butterscotch and that is a guilt that I will have to live with for the rest of my life. ALL of this could have been prevented if I wouldn't have been so ignorant. :no:

 

[FairytailGlennMinis]

I co-own a very heavily Komokos bred gelding that is one of my favorite critters on earth. He is 30.5-31" tall, 20 years old and a beautiful silver dapple blanketed appy. He was my partner that taught me how to drive and I love him with all of my heart. Knowing what I know now I am so very, VERY glad he was gelded young--there is no mistaking those tiny ears and ugly domed head as anything but a dwarf. He has good legs and is a wonderful companion and (in his day) driving horse, but he is certainly NOT what I would want to reproduce. He may be only a minimal dwarf, but that head and those ears show me that the liklihood of producing those and other dwarf characteristics would be great. What is sad to me is that I have seen other horses posted on here that are built very much like my sweet boy that are touted as breeding stock. I'll see if I can find a good headshot pic and driving pic and scan it.

It was picking the BEST of the blodlines, traits and individuals that has given us the miniature horses that we have today and we have diligent breeders that strive for the best to thank for that.

 

[Katiean]

I have been an animal breeder for a very long time now. In our Mini Rex rabbits, the way you know you have a true Mini Rex is if in your litter you have what is called a double dwarf. He has gotten the dwarf gene from both parents and he dies. Some have lived in my barn to 3 months of age. They stay so tiny they can get through a 1"x2" wire. But they always die. In these horses if you get a dwarf from your stock then take that pair or that pairing out of the mix. sterilize the off spring and move on. I don't know enough yet about what causes the dwarf in the mini horse. I know it is a gene. But, do both parents carry it or will the foal get it from just one parent and display it? Maybe if we knew more about what causes it we could ease the problem. But, I do think ALL dwarfs should be rendered unbreedable.