Bond / Komokos

[LowriseMinis]

To my understanding there is no singular dwarf gene in Minis, but several that they haven't been able to isolate yet. Some dwarf characteristics might be so minimal that they go unnoticed.

We bought Laci with the intent to breed her, but someone was kind enough to point out her dwarf features BEFORE we did. After looking at her more critically and researching her lines, we've decided she probably is a minimal dwarf and will not breed her. Are we disappointed? Yes! We drained our funds buying her as a potential broodmare before we knew better. We'd love to be able to buy a foal or mare we can use and/or show this coming year, but I doubt we'll have the funds.

However, I'm glad we found out BEFORE we bred her, glad she's in a home where she WON'T be bred, and glad we'll be careful to sell her as a pet if we ever do sell her.

I wish it was as simple as it was in dwarf rabbits..that I understand!

 

[Katiean]

So does only one parent have to have that dwarf gene for it to come out?

 

[outlawridge]

Someone correct me if I am wrong.. but it is my understanding that both parents need to be carriers of the gene to produce a dwarf foal. The problem with breeding a known dwarf producer to a horse that has yet never produced a dwarf, is that the resulting offspring will have a 25% chance of being a carrier. You are continuing the genetics in the next generation, and producing offspring that have the potential to produce a dwarf, when bred to another carrier.

 

[Loess Hills]

If you want to research the dwarf characteristics check the AMHA website on Genetics

Dwarfish in Miniature Horses

Get the facts and skip the innuendos about certain lines carrying the "dwarf gene".

 

[Flaxenacres]

I had my first dwarf foal this year. And it is by a very reputable big breeders blood lines. I will not mention who. I have foud the mare a pet home and the stallion I had already sold. Although I have left the current owner of the stallion know. I breed 2 mares to him before I sold him, the other foal was fine. I agree with Tony. And I am sure that if you dug deep in all the blood lines you will find dwarfism. I however do not want to breed them,but I feel that the more you breed the more you increase the chances. Kind of like the more horses you own the more vet bills you will have. As for my little dwarf BB Buttons I have become so attached to her I could not part with her. I have had many people want to buy her, and they all get the same NO! To learn more about the dwarfs go to Yahoo dwarf miniature horses

 

[nootka]

My point originally about the farm name thing was that there are too huge of a variation of type within a "farm name" which may not even BE the farm name the horse was born or bred under (these things managed to change or were incorrectly recorded) to make a determination of lineage or quality based on that name alone.

Again, just because a foal was born from a dwarf, it may NOT have been a dwarf and possibly may have carried the gene, but THEIR offspring may not have. So "deep in the genes" does not necessarily mean that it still exists, though it would likely be more possible and so you would want to be extra careful with what you see as well as production records.

What it means to be a responsible breeder is to take your animal's well-being first and foremost. This is the ONLY reason it was brought up at all about breeding horses that are apparent dwarfs or carriers of dwarf-type features. I may be wrong, but I believe that any horse exhibiting more than just one trait of dwarfism should more than likely be left out of the breeding program of ANYONE wanting to produce more horses. There is just too great a risk, considering that there are thousands of more suitable candidates out there that are far less likely (by looking at them) to produce a foal that is terribly deformed and/or may in fact cause a dystocia and cause the loss of the mare. Yes, these things happen to healthy and average sized horses, too, but noone refutes that a dwarf birth increases the chances of loss of both mare and foal, and noone really wants to breed a horse that is crippled in any way.

Anger really does signal denial to me, and when one is angry and in denial they are not learning. That is all my intention was, is to help others (if not the OP) learn from what I have learned with my observations over an approximate 20-year span of time in observing miniature horses (12 of those years I have owned them myself, though for over 20 years now I have owned and been directly involved with horses). It is not expert in that it is not backed up by scientific evidence, but right now, it's all we have.

I have, myself, been guilty of mistakes and wish someone could have helped me see the error of my ways before I made those mistakes, but oftentimes, we have to learn the hard way. Just too bad that innocent animals have to pay the price when someone feels so sure they are right that they can't at least step back and take a second look, and learn what true conformational defects are as well as the signs of dwarfism vs. "cuteness".

Good luck to you, Steff, I am very sorry for having offended rather than educated you. My mistake. I tried, both privately and in public, and I may in fact be wrong, but in this case, I don't think so.

I truly wish you the best and if you do proceed forward, you only get the good luck not the bad, and your breeding program produces only healthy, sound horses with blue eyes.

Liz

 

[Miniv]

So does only one parent have to have that dwarf gene for it to come out?

Katiean,

There is A LOT we don't know about dwarfism in minis. But, so far, the research that has been done is showing that the dwarf gene is recessive. This means that both the sire and the dam have to carry the gene, and even then there is a percentage chance that the dwarfism will show in some fashion.

It can show up with dwarf "characteristics" or the foal can be an obvious dwarf. I don't know (and I doubt) it is known why dwarfism shows in such varied degrees. However, I do know that there are two different kinds of dwarfism. One is more obvious than the other. And the theory is that the two different types hold different genetic compounds which complicates things.

At the moment there is some research being done on the genetics and the AMHA committee overseeing it is I think being chaired by John Eberth. Someone correct me if I'm wrong........

MA

 

[runamuk]

So does only one parent have to have that dwarf gene for it to come out?

I would say at this point no one knows. Miniature horses show several types of dwarfism. Humans have over 200 documented types of dwarfism. In cattle I believe they deal with 2-3 types of dwarfism.

In rabbits I can sayfrom experience, 2 genes = peanut, 1 gene = 3-4 lbs, no gene = 6+ lbs....this is very simplistic but is also a good general description of how the dwarf gene is used in dwarf rabbit breeding. I had jersey woolies, dutch, and polish. In my Jersey program I used two single gene carrier bucks and mostly non carrier does. My hope was to produce single gene carriers. Plus all the other needed conformation and coat too create winning rabbits (meeting the standard for both type and size). I actually only had peanuts twice and those were in my dutch which are not a dwarf breed. I also experience gigantism in the same dutch line. I eventually culled all the rabbits in that line.

The big advantage with rabbits is you can eat the culls or send them to wildlife rehabs (this is what we did often) They reproduce quickly you can breed at 6 months of age and litters arrive in 30ish days. You can very quickly test lines through inbreeding for reccessive and dominant traits. Horses it all takes much more time and there are fewer outlets for mistakes. Basically with horses the stakes are much higher.

I believe horses like my colt are single gene carriers, now if we could figure out which genes we would be moving forward.

:

 

[Katiean]

That is so true that horses take longer to sort out our mistakes. We have one mare I don't think we are going to breed at all. She had a colt shortly after we got her. He was very weak in the rear pasterns. I have no idea what she was bred to or if it was even her fault. It is just that She is very Quater Horse like. It seems that what everyone says is the ideal is the lighter, finer Arab type. I like her balance but, If I bred something like that am I breeding a lesser quality horse?

 

[crponies]

Katiean, I don't think breeding a mare with a little more substance is breeding lesser quality but it would depend on what you are hoping to produce. If you are hoping to produce a national level halter horse it would be more of a consideration than if you are breeding to produced nicely conformed horses for your own pleasure, local showing, performance, etc. Also, weak pasterns are not necessarily genetic. They can be caused from nutritional problems also for example.

 

[outlawridge]

Yes, John Eberth is doing research but so is Dr. Cothran, who is conducting dwarf research at Texas A & M. He had worked with John Eberth when he was at the University of Kentucky.

 

[tagalong]

Well, all the older "foundation lines" have had some dwarf influence IMO. So anyone pooh-poohing others for "continuing" dwarf lines had better look very closely at their horses' pedigrees. For instance - any Dell Tera in there?

:

Dell Tera's Lord of the Isles

When Bond Tiny Tim was used to bring down the size...

... dwarfs could be the result.

I truly cannot imagine using such an obviously distorted dwarf as Tiny Tim for breeding - but what's done is done. Generations down the line, we are left looking for answers...

Tony and I have disagreed about this stallion - Komoko's Little Husseler - in the past. I saw him in the pasture many times... on the first visit he looked up at us with his upturned nostrils, domed head and slightly "pug" face... his longer body and very short legs... and the two mares we had hauled over there to breed to him came back home with us the same day.... *shrug*

Tony and I agreed to disagree. But my concerns should also matter.... and that should not be deemed "innuendo"... IMO everything should be open to discussion.

I think it would help if we could at least acknowledge that dwarfism likely runs through a high percentage of minis in North America... no matter what bloodline... as tracking such things is not an exact science. Not all dwarfs are small in stature or are affected to obvious degrees.

IMO if only one parent was responsible for passing on the gene - we would see a lot more dwarfs than we do now. It takes two to tango... and also two to make a dwarf...

:

No matter how refined you think your minis are - every breeding is still a crapshoot - a 25% chance of producing a dwarf and an even smaller percentage of a live one actually being born - until the time that we can find a way to identify and isolate the dwarf gene...

And as Tony wisely pointed out - and I applaud him for his honesty - when you have a substantial herd of minis - dwarfs are going to happen at some point.... and IMO claims to the contrary should be met with some skepticism....

 

[skylineminis]

I'm going to jump in here also with an example of how yuo can't go by bloodlines to know the breeding quality of any horse without trial and error.

When I first started in the minis, some 28 years ago, I didn't have the money to go buy a horse. My first horse was given to me because his back feet were deformed, but, it wasn't his fault. It was human err. His owners lived in Houston and the ranch was here in Austin, TX. They came to the farm once a year but had a hired hand that took care of the horses and the cattle. Obviously, the hired hand didn't take care of the horses in this case. Mud had built up into his back feet (good old Texas black gumbo clay) and they rolled to the outside. When they returned the next year, they found the colt crippled, the damage done. Into the picture I came. They gave me the yearling colt and his two year old sister. These horses turned out to be 3rd. genertion American Miniature horses. NC and his sister were from a Freeman horse named Freeman's Mini Red Star. The Freeman line changed to the Ayers' line. If you know the older lines, most know of Ayer's Mini Red Man. I never have found out if Red Star was a son of Red man's or a "litter" mate, lol, but, my stallion looks identical to Ayers Mini Red Man Jr. I've never heard much of the Dams side, Clarehearsts Misty Mindy, but she was also first generation miniatures. She was Komoko top and bottom.

When these two horses died in their late twenties, they had never produced a dwarf and Misty had a foal just about every year of her life after she turned two. I still have NC and to date, he's never produced a dwarf. He's somewhere around 22 years old now.

Now, my horses coming from the Freeman/Ayers, Komoko lines, are known under the name of Skyline. After I aquired my stallion, I started going to horse sales and buying unknown small ponies for pennies on the dollar. I knew what I was looking for. Out of those horses and some very good friends letting me breed to some of their very good stallions, I started producing Champion winning halter horses out of unknown lines.

Bottom line, the pedigree has but a little of the equaision on breeding good horses. Conformation, and knowing how to read horses by the shape of their heads for good temperment is the biggest part of good breeding.

Pedigree helps because you get some history with the horse so you can get an idea of what's behind the horse but it isn't as important and labeling a "Bloodline" as a bad bloodline. I love the Bond line and I love the Dell Tera line. They usually have beautiful eyes and heads. Were those horses really Bond and Dell Tera bred horses? Who knows. I have a couple of stallions that have Bond Tiny Tim in their background. Is he close? No. He's well back in the genes, but, I know he's there. Does it stop me from breeding that stallion? Not a chance.

In the years I've been in minis, I have yet to produce a dwarf, not even a minimal. I've been very lucky. Is that a brag? No, it is not. I look for any "sign" of a mare carrying a possible dwarf gene. Do I breed that mare, no. I will sell her, if I was negligent in buying her in the first place, with the understanding to the new owner that she may be a dwarf producing mare and I do not reccomend her being bred.

Like others have said, read, look at photos, ask questions, learn and try to teach yourself to look for the suttle look of a possible dwarf carrying horse.

A friend of mine bought a mare, unregistered, at a mini horse sale and I didn't see the mare up close before she bought her. When I saw the mare in the trailer, I noticed the mare had a lower lip that didn't look right. Teeth were fine, just the lower lip was a little bigger than it shoud have been. She was bred to a really nice tiny black stallion that went thorugh the sale also. Low and behold, the mare kicked out a dwarf. Just that lower lip gave her away. Other than that, she's a really nice mare.

I'm telling these long winded stories just do people can see. Don't judge a bloodline, learn what to look for and ask questions. You may not always be told the truth, but, at least you tried.

Good luck to all in next year's foal crop.

 

[Buckskin gal]

Skylineminis I am curious, from your statement " Conformation, and knowing how to read horses by the shape of their heads for good temperment is the biggest part of good breeding" what shape or what would the head look like that would give good temperment? Thanks, mary

 

[buckonranch]

WELL I DONT THINK MOST OF YOU ARE GOING TO LIKE THIS.. :no: BUT I AM A REALIST.. AND THIS IS WHAT I HAVE LEARNED TO BE REALITY AS A MINIATURE HORSE BREEDER..

I have been reading and thinking... about the ability for us "choosing" proper individuals to prevent producing dwarfs..????????

My first thought... that comes right to mind, as it has many years before..IT IS NOT NICE TO FOOL WITH MOTHER NATURE....... and that is just what we are doing.. SO WHAT DO WE EXPECT????? we all know God didnt create Little Horses, they did not come from the Valley of the Little Horses.. and the Kings and queens of Europe.. WEll????

If you really want to do the responsible solution we should all just QUIT.. no more breeding.. ... admit we should not be trying to reduce genetically an animal that wasnt meant to be.!!!!!. We all CHOSE to be apart of this creating a species that does not exist.. so we are gamblers.. we play with fire, we get burned.. THE OLD DINASOARS, PROBABLY TOOK MANY MORE RISKS THAN WE HAD TO....BUT WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS ALL STARTED FOLKS?????? Is it a crappy deal for the poor horses.. Yes.. people it is.. but sometimes in order to accomplish our goal we HAVE TO ACCEPT the good with the bad.. or QUIT<< (Example the dwarf Baby bunny!!!!)

When thinking back over my very many past years of breeding.. have I ever produced dwarfs.. ?

YES>

Do I beleive we had to have recessive genes to bring down size ???

YES>>

Have I intentionally produced dwarfs??

NO>>>

Well.. looking back.. I too loved that gorgeous exotic..(*love that word) heads with no legs and bigger bodies.. Could those signs have been a warning.. Yes.. many years later it looks very clear..to me that could be the case..

Do I think historically, people lie to hide the truth about dwarves in their programs

Yes.. I THINK THEY DO...

Do I blame them for lying???

No I dont, unless they want to take out their herd and shoot them..or never sell another animal

Do I beleive that a dwarf producing individual has a good chance of never producing another dwarf? YES>>

Do I think the two individuals should be bred back together.if they have produced a dwarf. ??

NO>>> that is playing with tooo much fire...

Do I think every stallion is one dwarf away from being gelded..

Yes I do 25% chance that his turn is coming..

Do I think miniatures that do no show signs of dwarfism can be producers????

Absolutely.. I would NOT make the statement that I am so educated that I feel I know better than others

which animals will or will not produce.. I have always said its the Genes you CANNOT see that will KILL YOU>>>>

Do I think to be a breeder of miniature horses you have to Cowboy UP>> learn to cope with heart ache and disppointment... ?????

Yes.. that is the name of the game.. This is farming.. if the weather.. the foaling problems, sickness, feed and gas prices..dont kill us.... maybe someday a few of us will produce that perfect little horse we have been working so many years to accomplish..

I think "doing the right thing" in a breeder is commendable..in the small breeder.... but..... I think we would be gelding and spaying more animals than we can count For a serious breeder to achieve the goal of perfection, we are going to have to take risks to accomplish our goal.

Do I think we can be safe breeding animals that do NOT exhibit phenotype signs of dwarfism..?

NO I DO NOT THINK IN MOST CASES a breeder CAN.. I BELEIVE YOU HAVE A ONE IN FOUR CHANCE of producing the "dwarf" and or dwarf Characterists..and i am not going to kid anybody.. I am just as scared of having the "creature from heck" as anyone.

Is their any insight I have obtained in the last 20 years of breeding????

I do beleive there is merit in NOT breeding a mini that exhibits some extreme recessive dominate traits.. If it walks like a duck.. and quacks like a duck... Hello Angie.. It very well could be a DUCK>> Sometimes I am a little slow...

I think John Eberth is on to a clue from their studies.. He was telling us about a dominate non recessive.gene. if a horse is a result of inheriting both NON RECESSESSIVE GENES from his parents they could possible not be able to produce a dwarf.. ever.. if we could test and keep these horses for breeding then we could be on to something.. I have not had any dwarf resembling offspring in WAY to many years to count.. I was thinking I had beat the odds, but after listening to John at one of his presentations.. I have a stallion who is out of two very small parents. but shows NO recessive phenotype.. can be bred to "exotic" headed mares and will not produce it.. tiny mares, but produces long legs and very refined.. I use to tease.. I think I could breed him to a dwarf and he would NOT produce it.. but now after learning more.. I beleive there is a good possibility he is Dominant NON recessive.. I just happened on this by accident.. it would be a very good explaination to why the dwarf problem just all of a sudden quit... I have always said.. I will take tall over small and very recessive any day..because as tough as I may seem and insensitive to the dwarf problems.. I beleive I could be only one breeding away myself...and it is very very heartbreaking.. and as much a I love to contol... this is one part of my love of miniature horses I would rather keep in denial!!!!

I am not looking for anyone to agree or disagree with my interpetation of Reality.... Just wanted to share a different side a very important issue to all of us..

Angie/buckonranch

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I for one think the whole dwarf issue, in exactly the same way as the "Appy issue" is going to turn out to be a lot, (and I mean a LOT) more complicated than merely recessive or non recessive.

I do not believe you can get degrees of recessiveness- in fact I know you cannot- you would need a different word as recessive means "tending to go back" which is a bit of a grey area to start with.

If something is non recessive it is clear.

End of explanation.

If a horse is LWO in a h/Z form it carries one allele positive for LWO

If it is H/Z for LWO it carries two positive alleles for LWO and will die.

If it is LWO negative it is clear.

That is fairly straightforward.

It may well turn out that dwarfism is similar, and that, as with LWO you can get a horse whose pattern is so minimal, or possibly even masked by other traits (Appy for example) as to go unnoticed.

This horse would still test positive, even though, to the eye, it is a solid horse- look at Rowdy.

It is more than possible that this is how it will turn out to be with dwarfism- that the horse we thought were OK are in fact effected and carrying the problem down through the generations.

You have only to look at what happened in Arabs, QHs and TBs when people started to actually look for and encourage the patterns, instead of discarding them, as happened previously.

So, I think, as I am sure we all do, that we desperately need a test for this problem- this comes up every so often on this board, I know but I also know I have not sent a contribution to the project for some time so I am going to do so now, and encourage anyone who can to do the same.

We can discuss until the cows come home but until we can test we cannot really do anything except follow our hearts.

Edited to add:

I have been breeding Minis for just over thirty years and I have never bred a horse that was a dwarf or had dwarf characteristics.

So far, so good!!!!

 

[kaykay]

I applaud the farms like Angie/Tony etc who are brutally honest on this issue.

Rabbit I understand what you are saying but here what I have said and thought for years. A minimal expression dwarf is just way too subjective. What screams minimal expression dwarf to me might not scream it to you. And there is where the problem lies. These are the ones that continue to be bred and slip through the cracks.

I think the AMHA guideline is that if a horse exhibits 3 dwarf characteristics it cannot be registered. Well three is very easy to pick out and there are a lot registered that show at least 3. Domed head, high nostrils and a short neck would be 3 of the ones I see the most.

For example here is a horse we took in the rescue. When I brought her here people loved her and wanted to breed her. To me she screams minimal expression dwarf. She went to a non breeding home. She is AMHA registered and from a good bloodline

For anyone newer here is what I saw as her characteristics

Domed head/eyes very far apart

Overly long back

Bad bite

Club hoof

 

[RobinRTrueJoy]

I personally REALLY like the BOND and KOMOKO horses. Look around....there can be dwarves born in World Champion lines, NO ONE IS IMMUNE. Try as you might to be careful, breeding the best to the best, it can still happen sadly.

Robin

ps. Tony,

you are NOT a dinosaur!

 

[Margaret]

I am aware that dwarves have come from these lines, however my current stallion has considerable bond breeding in his background, and he resembles anything but a dwarf.

His forhead is flat as can be, his bite is dead on, straight legs , etc and he throws babies that are very nice, ( no dwarves ) that have gone on to show homes.

To isolate the dwarf gene to bloodlines alone, would be like throwing out the baby with the bath water.

A "trained eye" can see a Minimal Expressed Dwarf, so until a test can be performed to isolate the gene, this is the best way we have to identify and stop breeding them- (for those of us who care.)

:

 

[Shari]

I had a Silver Dapple pinto Bond mare back when I was breeding. Conformation wise she was very, very nice...will have to dig up an old picture of her and scan it. Her foals were also very nice.

I have a friend that raises a lot of mini's and she cares for them very much. She had bred one of her mares many times..same with the stallion but not pair them up for different reasons. Niether of them had any dwarfs until...she paired that mare and that one stallion one year and the resulting foal was a very clear dwarf.

She still thinks the pairing of those too,, is what caused the dwarf. She never bred those too together again and to this day she has not had another dwarf out of either one of them.

I have seen all of her horse's for years and can say they are really nice.

I think some lines or combo of lines produce more Dwarves but until all breeders are willing to keep track, be very truthful and make the info public, find out which gene's cause it, not much is going to change.