Breeding difficulties

[nootka]

I have a mare out for breeding, and she has been away now for two months.

She delivered a healthy filly Mar. 28th, and all was normal (her third). She is six.

The mare was covered the first week of June (I guess there was no heat they could detect through teasing until then, which is sort of odd to me given her history of first-take breeding).

She ultrasounded open a few days ago, but with a 2 cm. follicle so she should be coming back into heat again soon. They said when the stallion covered her, he did not "finish" in that he did not ejaculate.

The vet said this may be because her hormones are not right to soften the cervix and the stallion, finding it uncomfortable would not want to, hence she would not be bred even though they went through all the motions. They are hand-breeding, which is pretty much all she's had anyway.

Now what they said may be a remedy is to have a vet come out and apply some lubricant to help her dilate, wait an hour or so and then breed her to the stallion (I am hearing $$$ signs racking up, not to mention I am not really ready to undertake these kinds of complications with breeding at this point).

This is the first time I've heard of this particular breeding difficulty. Has anyone else ever heard of this/encountered it and/or used this approach to solve this problem?

I am leaning towards one more attempt with this stallion this year and then throwing it in. Just plain ol' breeding, and wait and see.

Looks like 2008 will be the first year we have not had a foal born since 2000, but so be it. Still have one more chance!

Thanks for your observations and input.

Liz M.

 

[Kendra]

Liz, I've worked at a busy vet clinic for 6 years. They do a lot of breeding work for many different breeding operations, as well as 80-100 mares annually on site. I do all the invoicing, so see the reports on everything the four vets do, and I've never heard of that as a problem, or of a drug to fix it.

Did they do a vaginal exam to see if that was the case? It seems like a strange diagnosis to make after the fact.

My thought is that if her cervix wasn't softened, she wasn't in good heat.

I hope everything goes smoothly on this cycle!

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Huh? Sorry, never heard a stallion's problem of not finishing blamed on a mare's cervix! Yes, its theoretically possible, but I can't say I've ever felt a cervix THAT hard before. I think he's BS'ing you... there IS a drug that can be applied to the cervix to help it soften, its a cream used in human fertility clinics, and yes, $$$$$$$. But, the only time I'd suggest using it is if the mare has cervical issues and can't drain out fluid, AND you are doing embryo transfer. If the sperm can't get out, or in for that matter, neither can the foal!

I'd diagnose the stallion, not blame the mare.

 

[Crabby-Chicken]

My opinion is, is that she got enough of a cover that she took. If her cervix is that closed I would think she is carrying an embryo that is so new that the ultrasound didn't detect it. And I believe that they still will produce follicles but may absorb them after they are pregnant. Joanne would be a good one to ask about this. Just my thought.

 

[mininik]

If you're talking about who I think you are... this is not BS. I do know that the stallion "finished" when he bred other mares just fine.

PS. Don't shoot the messenger... I'm only the assistant.

:

 

[disneyhorse]

Here are some articles that I found related to this topic:

Cervix article

Maiden cervix article #2

Not relaxed cervix

Article

I dunno, haven't really heard much about that...

Andrea

 

[nootka]

I'm not looking for anyone to validate or discount the idea as it wasn't really based on an "exam" just a theory as to why it didn't get "done." Certainly not calling "BS".

I do know every other mare that was being bred was US'ed in foal, the only one out was mine and she's NEVER had a problem before.

Like I said, my plan of attack at this point is to let the stallion have one more try at my girl with no intervention of any kind, and bring her home then figure out if she took or not and leave it at that until next year.

It just always figures that when you're not paying for the board, they take right away, but whe you are, they take their SWEET time! *LOL*

I was more looking for any other information since I had not heard of this before and was hoping it was something that would not re-occur with this new heat cycle (which she should be starting any time), or just other experiences and observations, period.

We will see what happens. I'll keep you posted, I'm very excited about this foal!

Liz

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

If the mare's cervix was hard enough to cause the stallion (side note, is the stallion unusually long?) pain, so much so that he pulls out and refuses to breed the mare, I'd be VERY worried. That would indicate some kind of growth or cancer. Stallions can occassionally have "issues" finishing their duty, I wouldn't worry if it only happens once. But I certainly wouldn't jump to the solution that veterinarian suggested; the drug is VERY expensive and the idea, while theoretically possible, very hard to swallow. I'd look at the other, far more likely, ideas first.

I've felt a lot of cervicies... to have one so hard it causes pain is very unusual.

 

[Becky]

I've had stallions go through the motion but not complete the job before. If he feels intimidated or distracted in any way, that can certainly cause it.

I've also had a mare here previously that had scar tissue from a dystocia and that wouldn't allow the stallion to penetrate. None of my stallions would breed her. They tried but would not finish breeding.

You might want to have the vet do a vaginal exam to rule out any problems with the mare.

 

[Songcatcher]

Very interesting topic. I certainly don't have any answers, but find the comments interesting.

I have a mare (one of my favorites) who had a foal in '04 unassisted. No problems. She had a foal in '05 that didn't get out of the sack. I missed the birth by 5-10 minutes. I didn't breed her back for '06 as it was late in the year and I didn't want a foal that late in the year the next year. Last year, she simply would not settle. She cycled regularly every three weeks and was successfully covered, but never settled. I had her cultured and flushed. The vet said everything was fine, but she still wouldn't settle. I contemplated taking her to a specialist and after checking some prices, decided it just wasn't cost effective for me. This year I put her in with the stallion in late March. Although she has not been checked yet, it appears she settled on her first cycle of breeding. She has not come back into heat since her first cycle after being put in with Bandit.

Long story short, she would not settle one year. I might have spent $$$$$ to get her in foal, but opted not to after basic check by vet. This year (hopefully) she is in foal without having spent the $$$$$.

 

[mininik]

: Okay, more info.: Yes, several other mares bred by the same stallion this year have been ultrasounded in foal. I would not say the stallion is unusually "long." As for helping your mare, I don't believe there was a drug mentioned. I've been told the suggestion was to apply KY Jelly to the cervix, wait an hour, then breed...

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

KY Jelly is spermacidal... and it won't help the cervix open. It would help you get a finger into it, which would stretch it, allowing more space for sperm to get inside. I'm not sure why they would suggest using that. It would also wash off pretty quickly, between the stallion's emissions and the mare's secretions.

 

[Lauralee]

The cream must be some sort of hormone preparation.....in women's healthcare, this type of cream costs around $80 a tube.....never heard of this for horses, though, or how it would be applied.

If the cervix is hard, it is EITHER because she is already bred (MUST ultrasound to rule out pregnancy before proceeding) OR it is in need of dilation.

Cervices can be manually dilated with proper training from a vet.

An ultrasound should be used to determine ovulation so that the timing will be appropriate.

Simple, pre-breeding dilation of the cervix has gotten many "infertile" mares in foal. A stenosed cervix can happen to multipara experienced mares, also, not just the maidens.

I have a problem believing the stallion is uncomfortable. Here is why. When I locate and dilate a mare's cervix, it is in the BOTTOM of the vaginal vault. A stallion's penis does not bend down like that when he breeds the mare. The angle is UP when he is inside the mare. It would have to bend in half straight down to actually rub or hit the cervix. There is alot more room in the vaginal vault (actually vestibule, they call it)surrounding the cervix than you might expect.....some mares have space that could hold a cantaloupe. That's how roomy it can be. However, it is located such that it is in the bottom of the vestibule, in the direction of the udder or umbilicus, nowhere near the path of the stallion's penis, which is heading up, parallell to the spine.

 

[nootka]

Thank you for the replies on this.

It was not my intent to imply that I was being taken advantage of in any way as I NEVER suspected that.

My only reason for posting was to see if anyone else had been through it.

I am frustrated only in that I had planned on breeding only ONE mare this year, and not having a stallion, I took some time to choose the right one. I didnt' want to think that may be he just doesn't like her and was incompatible for reasons noone may ever know.

I also didn't want to think that the mare may be developing difficulties when she has been sound and has taken on the first attempt every year she has been bred (she started as a three year old and this would be her fourth foal).

I originally posted that it was a hormone that would be put into the mare, but I was wrong, it was stated as a lubricant and dilation procedure, but it made me uncomfortable to think of attempting that given that it could be other reasons she's not settled at this point (I am not sure if she was bred twice or just over the one heat cycle).

I am going to see if the stallion will cover her on this next attempt and will then bring her home, wait and see and try again next year.

I'll let you know if she finally takes and thanks for the input though I really do not think I was being taken advantage of, I just misunderstood some of it and am frustrated with my mare/luck.

If she does need the dilation procedure I am not sure if I am comfortable doing that at this point and hopefully this will resolve itself. The stallion, however, was not fully excited by the mare and that may have been her hormone level as well as just a plain ol' not compatible issue and why those things happen is anyone's guess.

Liz M.

 

[MountainMeadows]

Liz,

I have had a couple of mini mares that have the problem you describe -- spent literally thousands over the years on trying to figure them out and following their cycles with US's and trying various other methods to get the mare pregnant -- I probably could have gotten the mare in foal if I had collected the stud and AI'd the sperm right into her when she was due to ovulate - actually tried that once, but after being charged another $350 for that procedure that didn't work, I finally gave up on the mare and gave her away. I will say that this mare had given me 3 beautiful babies and then went into "shutdown" mode - it took a couple of years of working with her to determine that her cervix wasn't softening enough to allow sperm thru - my stallion finally got pretty sick and tired of her also - he seemed to know that "something" wasn't right. All in all I worked with her for about 5 years before I finally gave in, so it was not something that went away unfortunately.

I have heard of the gel that is used on their cervix, but it was after I had given my mare away, so don't know if it would have helped.

I strongly believe that there were some hormonal issues contributing to this problem, and there was concern voiced by the vet that there might be a potential problem with her not dilating when she needed to in order to foal if her hormones were out of whack.

There are a couple of other people in our area that I could send you to that are also working with this problem with their mares, if interested give me a call or PM me and I can give you some names.

Stac

 

[Songcatcher]

Good luck with your mare Liz. I hope all will work out fine.