Closing AMHA Registry

[Robin]

You go John! I was waiting to hear your "expert" opinion on this topic. Closing the registry would be a disgrace to the breeders and to the future of the breed- if you want to call it one.

The fact that opening the registry so that the taller horses can come in - is not the plan. The taller horses won't necessarily help with the dwarf gene problem- because even those horses could carry the dwarf gene. It is that it gives options to breeding programs that have been bred tightly to increase the type or probability of certain attributes because characteristically there may not be anything that appeals or creates a better type already in the breed or registry for that breeder. This applies to people who breed for driving horses, arab type, appaloosas, athletic jumpers, etc

What many of you still do not understand is that today's miniatures were founded from the "throw away shetlands". The poor conformed, dwarf type shetlands that were sent to the circus, given to the kids to play with. This is what horse breeders thought of them at the time.... pets, cast aways etc. Then they became an "exotic". Now- considering the miniature horse started off so poor - it is amazing thru selective breeding that they have become what they are today. However- that is also why today- so many small sheltands are coming into the showring and beating the minis. They are selective good shetlands bred down in size and not poor quality ones bred up. That is why those who do not line breed or inbreed and specialize in a certain type get such a variety in their foal crops each year.

I guess for those that are happy with the quality of horses and level of competition there is in the show ring today then closing the registry is a good thing for you. But for those who like competition, want to try to create the next best thing, breed the next level of athletic miniature, or improve a certain type/trait, then I would suggest you vote to keep it open and encourage more genetic research. Then again- this is coming from someone who sees 150 mares get bred each year and over 100 foals born in our barn each year. There is no perfect horse.

Robin-LKF

 

[JWC sr.]

John,

I was glad to see you respond to this thread as you are one of the few people that can actually base your opinions on more than just "I thinks" if you will.

The numbers/percentages you reflect in your post do not surprise me at all on the rare types 3 & 4 and when it comes to the more common forms of dwarfism(1 & 2), it will not surprise me to see those numbers increase dramatically.

To me as a breeder that wants to produce the best horses I can, I personally will be glad when your genomes and testing are ready for public usage. As even one dwarf foal I can prevent is too many for me to produce.

Further Cindy and I are committed to when the testing is ready to test any and all of our herd and remove those that are carriers from our breeding pool by gelding stallions, pulling papers on mares and selling them into pet homes etc.

Drastic yes, but again I think it will be worth it in the long run.

Again thanks for your work and devotion to this inherent problem, we all must face and deal with in our own way in the Miniature horse industry.

Ed I appreciate your comments and wish I could agree with them as I respect your opinion, but in this case I think you are heading in the wrong direction.

While I agree with your assessment of the market as a whole, addition of new bloodlines etc. will only strengthen the registry and not hurt in any way that I can think of. We like you have been in this industry for many years and have seen the good times along with the current bad. But like you believe that more good times for this breed are just around the corner and for the entire industry in the coming years. Let hope we are correct in this assumption.

 

[minimomNC]

Of the people that do hardship horses, how many of you find horses with bloodlines that are not already in the miniature horse stud books? Is it common to find a totally different bloodline that no one else has? If it is, then are you sure this "new" bloodline will improve the miniature horse of today? I keep reading and keep reading about closing the studbook will limit the gene pool yet no one has yet said where the new gene pool is coming from and how do you know its a new gene pool and not one already in existance today. If keeping the books open means just adding more shetland bloodlines then why not just say that, or adding hackney bloodlines, then just say that. With breeders that have been raising and selling horses for decades, wouldn't you think that every type of miniature horse gene would already be in the stud books? What exactly are you looking for that is new? And where would you start looking to find it? I am just curious since it keeps coming up.

 

[Robin]

Of the people that do hardship horses, how many of you find horses with bloodlines that are not already in the miniature horse stud books? Is it common to find a totally different bloodline that no one else has? If it is, then are you sure this "new" bloodline will improve the miniature horse of today? I keep reading and keep reading about closing the studbook will limit the gene pool yet no one has yet said where the new gene pool is coming from and how do you know its a new gene pool and not one already in existance today. If keeping the books open means just adding more shetland bloodlines then why not just say that, or adding hackney bloodlines, then just say that. With breeders that have been raising and selling horses for decades, wouldn't you think that every type of miniature horse gene would already be in the stud books? What exactly are you looking for that is new? And where would you start looking to find it? I am just curious since it keeps coming up.

We have hardshipped several- mostly mares - and they have come from some bloodlines that are already in the gene pool, but some that have not. It isn't necessarily finding a totally new horse, but one that has the attributes and strengths we are looking for to correct, change or solidify ones we already have and like. I really do not care what outside breed/bloodline it is as long as I can see what I want consistently behind it. We have an outcross stallion that goes back to shetland and miniature that may have some lines that are already in the gene pool, but the combination of genes phenotypically is different than others. So far- the cross is working for us as we tweak and see what consistently is reproduced and what isn't. We have another Shetland/miniature that has Hackney in the background (as most performance shetlands do) that has motion, proportion and refinement that we would like to see added into our herd. We are trying to refine our herd to something that we are striving to produce. Not everyone wants the same "type" horse that we would like to produce but at this point Buckeroo is 31 years old- he has done all there is to do himself except add more titles to his get and grandget. It is time we try to take his great attributes and add them to something new (and honestly there isn't much in the current breed that we haven't tried already).

Again- imagine the gene pool without Buckeroo. There was never a full sibling to him- several half silblings, but none of them ever reached the same level as he has. the one horse, one cross has made a significnat difference to the industry. So-was it the genetic cross that made him different- the way the genes matched up and how dominant they are to other crosses? Yes - the owner and choice of mares has a lot to do with it, but although I believe my Mom can do just about anything- I don't think she has mastered the gene combination when the sperm hits the egg--- at least not yet

Like I said- the open registry is not necessarily to bring in a completely different breed into the registry, but it is having the option of bringing in something different, maybe just hardshipping that one horse found in the backyard of someone that was never registered, or maybe just something new that gives spark to an old flame????

Robin-LKF

 

[targetsmom]

Or maybe, just maybe, once we can test for dwarf genes, keeping the registry open will allow people to bring in individuals of whatever bloodlines they have, who don't carry genes for dwarfism....

 

[JWC sr.]

Like Robin we have hard shipped in several horses over the years.

Our Sr. Stallion Rio De Oro as an example. He is unique in that his bloodlines are not in AMHA with the exception about 6 or 7 generations back if I remember right as best we can tell.

We also have hard shipped in several of his daughters that were Sr. mares when we did so of course. Their backgrounds were different than what we currently have in the registries also to my knowledge. One of the mares I can't for sure say that as she was out of a grade mare we had no background on. That particular mare is a world reserve champion herself and has also produced several world champions also. As has Rio De Oro.

So while some Shetland/hackney blood may come in as a result of hard shipping, I do not have a problem with that. To me the expense of hard shipping is pretty steep all things considered and hopefully only really nice individuals would be hard shipped in wherever they came from as far as heritage, which hopefully those horses would reproduce those attributes that made them special enough to go to the expense of hard shipping in the first place.

As far as being sure that any additions would better the breed as we know it, there is no way to know for sure without continuously trying to expand our horizons so to speak.

The improvement of the AMHA horses in the past 10 years or so is to me unbelievable from a conformation standpoint and also from a usage standpoint. Hopefully that will continue to be the case. Some of that change for the better has come from dedicated breeders hard shipping special horses into the registry.

Anything that we as custodians of the horses in our care we can do to improve the conformation and capabilities of the horses we breed is a good thing in my eyes.

Bottom line we can use the money and we can also use the genetics for a variety of reasons in our registry in my opinion.

 

[HGFarm]

I will put in my 2 cents on a couple of issues that caught my eye here... It sounds like MAYBE only 50% of the Miniatures out there should be bred then, if the results are that high in carrying the dwarf genes. Weeding these out will certainly reduce the gene pool again by a LOT. I agree that I think folks would be surprized to see what horses would test positive, regardless of size- over or under 34".........

I dont think having oversized foundation horses was encouraging people to breed more oversized horses. Their backgrounds were under 34", and if you want something that is sellable and small, why would you breed that horse to another big Mini for big babies? You would breed to something probably a bit smaller than usual, to TRY to ensure that the foal stayed under the size limit required for showing, etc...... I know someone who had one of these oversized mares, and she never had ONE foal that went over 34". Most of them were not even close.

I have known folks who bred two 30" get an offspring that matured at 36" and I have seen larger Minis have foals that matured very small. It's a crap shoot, and you get what you get.... it's not that anyone TRIES to breed for bigger Minis and has most of their foals go oversize. I have a mare that continually produces smaller than she is (31.75") and personally her foals are too small for my taste, though I have bred her to a larger stallion in hopes of getting that 'happy medium'.

'Inbreeding' and 'line breeding'---- the Arabian horse breed has done it for years......... I have not heard of dwarfs as a result of that. I do see that there is a difference between the two (line or in breeding), albeit a fine line as was stated in a previous post. I am NOT sure that either one of those simply 'results in a dwarf' except when the horses lines being concentrated, was a dwarf carrier already, that just concentrated the gene to make one.

I see many Miniatures advertised as double bred such and such or triple bred such and such- own a few myself- and they do not exhibit dwarf characteristics, nor have mine (with limited breeding on a small farm) produced one to date... so I am not so sure that close breeding and dwarfism are tied together just based on those two individual things. However line or inbreeding of horses WITH a dwarf gene would probably result in dwarf offspring. Some are always quick to blame the line breeding as the reason for the dwarf... they dont note the millions of successful line bred or even in bred horses out there..........

Well, I am probably getting redundant here.... just some rambling thoughts of my own.

 

[minimomNC]

Thank you finally ! ! ! Thats what I have been wanting to see on here. I think to many people just follow in saying that closing the books will close the addition of other gene pools without knowing exactly what they are looking for or talking about. Now maybe more will understand exactly what the gene pool is all about and what breeders are looking for, and why so many want to keep it open.

Oh and I have a coming yearling gelding that we will be showing that is a grandson of a hardshipped Rio De Oro daughter.

 

[JWC sr.]

Keep in touch Minimom, we always are interested as to how get and grand get of Rio's are doing!!!

Just for information's sake Rio de Oro is a size reducer in most cases we have found over the years. He normally produces babies that go under by a long shot. they will scare you to death in the first year, where they shoot up quickly, but them stop completely. He is an honest 33 3/4" and the majority of his offspring have been in the 30 - 32" range with a lot of movement. But alas he is getting older and so far is still covering his mares, but we worry about him every year. One of these days he is going to just stop on us, but hopefully not for a while. He is going to leave a big hole when he finally does pass or stops producing.

As far as double bred horses are concerned, our second leading stallion is a product of Baccara being bred to a Double Destiny daughter. His name is Luxor. I bought him from Marianne at the world sale several years ago and he has proved to be a perfect fit when bred to the Rio De Oro daughters we have, producing several World Champion get for us. So being double bred is not a bad thing when it is handled right.

The resultant babies can sure intensify the positive attributes of the forefathers and mothers. In this case we could not be happier with Luxor.

 

[Capall Beag IRL]

I have been watching this thread with great interest.

Here in Ireland we are just starting to see the problems with dwarf minis. To date i know of 3 dwarf minis bred in Ireland, 2 from an AMHA stallion and 1 from a part bred AMHA stallion (who only bred once & the foal was a dwarf & was gelded asap) and i believe firmly that this is only the start because people just dont know the history of these horses because AMHA horses are so fashionable at the moment.

In the last 18 months 99% of all mini horses imported into Ireland are AMHA and now we also have the problem of over height horses and this is causing great problems because here in Ireland ALL horses are measured to the WHITHERS but yet the owners of these over height show horses kick up such a stink at the ringside that they are putting people off showing, so now they been reduced to only showing their AMHA minis in classes that are up to 38" or 42" because people have called for all horses to be measured at Championship shows. I myself have been in a final line up with my 4yr old mare @ 33" (to the whithers) and an AMHA yearling is taller than my mare.

I think that the AMHA should take a more responsible role in the AMHA horses in Europe.

I dont think that closing the registry is the answer but i do believe that when a commerically available test for dwarfism is available that ALL mares & stallions that are bred in a year are tested (until every breeding horse is tested) and the results sent directly to AMHA, if you dont test clear then you dont get issued full AMHA papers for the foal. Also by law EVERY equine in Europe now has to be microchipped, to help eliminate misidentification among other things.

In Europe we are unable to hardship ANY minis into AMHA which i think is unfair to the gene pool. My own stallion is a Multi Supreme Champion beating all AMHA show horses last year and this year, yet he hasnt 1 AMHA horse in his pedigree.

We have just started a new Irish Stud Book so we are way back at the beginning but hopefully we will learn from the mistakes of others and ALL Irish miniatures are measured to the whithers.

Just my thoughts and observations from across the water

Capall Beag Miniatures

 

[Robin]

In Europe we are unable to hardship ANY minis into AMHA which i think is unfair to the gene pool. My own stallion is a Multi Supreme Champion beating all AMHA show horses last year and this year, yet he hasnt 1 AMHA horse in his pedigree.
We have just started a new Irish Stud Book so we are way back at the beginning but hopefully we will learn from the mistakes of others and ALL Irish miniatures are measured to the whithers.

Just my thoughts and observations from across the water

Capall Beag Miniatures

Hi- You are at such an advantage over the American miniatures because it is fresh and new and you can make the rules that fit your country.

My feeling is that if the international community is going to have AMHA/AMHR horses, shows, etc then they should have to play by the same rules- all of them. Judges/sterwards should have to go thru the same testing criteria, owners should be able to register, hardship etc the same as Americans can, shows should be ran the same way, points, etc and measuring should be the same way. I disagree with how the AMHA measures the minis- Again- they had to be different and re-invent the wheel. All horses should be measured by the withers if it was up to me. It is Universal. Just my opinion there!

I like the microchip idea. I like the DNA testing idea. You can do that- because the American miniatures into your country are so new and there are so few- however we are way past that here. If you were to take out all the dwarf gene carriers- you would lose over 50% of the minis. There would not be a breeding program left (IMO). I just don't think people can really get their arms around this entire problem/concept. It will come to a point and there will be a way to go forward, but I simply feel it is no different than the HYPP in Quarter horses. Or maybe to make this more easy to understand- in humans- imagine blue eyed humans all the sudden had a shorten life span- then would that mean- no 2 blue eyed people would be allowed to have kids????

Again- I just feel closing the AMHA at this stage of infantcy is premature. What is the reason for closing it anyway? Too many horses? Not going to stop that with peolpe breeding the already registered ones? Don't want any competition coming into the association from an outside bloodline or type? Now that sounds petty and insecure. Oh or maybe it is beacuse AMHA is so rich with money they can afford to cut off anymore hardshipping and income from such? Last time I looked they only had $11,000 in the bank.....Or maybe they are trying to increase the value of the horses registered? I think someone put that well in another post--- a horse is only worth what someone is willing to ask for it and what another person is willing to pay for it.

Again- I think the International communities just getting started with American minis has a great advantage over us here in the USA.

Robin-LKF

 

[targetsmom]

"If you were to take out all the dwarf gene carriers- you would lose over 50% of the minis. There would not be a breeding program left (IMO). I just don't think people can really get their arms around this entire problem/concept. It will come to a point and there will be a way to go forward, but I simply feel it is no different than the HYPP in Quarter horses. Or maybe to make this more easy to understand- in humans- imagine blue eyed humans all the sudden had a shorten life span- then would that mean- no 2 blue eyed people would be allowed to have kids???? "

Thank you Robin!!! I was hoping that I was not the only one who thought like this. You relate it to HYPP and I relate it to LWO. As long as being a CARRIER causes no adverse effects, then why not just test everyone and breed carriers only to non-carriers? This won't eliminate the carriers but should eliminate the dwarfs/lethal white foals, etc. Based on these estimates there must be a lot of breeders who KNOW they have dwarf carriers and I am sure they would like to see a strategy for dealing with dwarfism that didn't involve eliminating large numbers of horses from their breeding stock (and the gene pool). And maybe some of their BEST horses too...

 

[kaykay]

What is the reason for closing it anyway? Too many horses? Not going to stop that with peolpe breeding the already registered ones? Don't want any competition coming into the association from an outside bloodline or type?

Lets just call it what it is. Many people do not want any more horses with Shetland blood hardshipped into the AMHA. Many dont like them in AMHR either. But as I have said all along if you dont want Shetland blood in your herd (well if you dont want to RE introduce Shetland blood) then dont.

 

[HGFarm]

I dont understand what the big problem with Shetland blood is.... HOW MANY of the foundation sires and dams for that matter, for the AMHA horses as we know it have Shetland breeding.... some of the folks that oppose it would probably faint if they knew.... And that is where a LOT of them originated from!! At least many of those lines can be traced so you know what you have.... but the ones hardshipped that were registered as something else (Shetland, imports, etc...) got stuck with 'unknown' on the pedigree. It certainly doesnt mean they dont have Shetland also!! They should go back and really study their bloodlines and see what is back there. Hey, a little Shetland never hurt anybody, LOL

I dont know why folks would be so adamant about closing them out when that is where so much of the breed originated from.

 

[JWC sr.]

The problem I have with the way AMHA does the hardshipping is that no matter if the bloodlines are known or not they are listed as Unknown. I am not sure what AMHR's policy is.

No matter if it is shetland, AMHR or whatever it still says unknown.

Which is silly as so many of our AMHA horses do go back to the shetland side of things. Names such as Gold Melody Boy, Rowdy etc. etc.

 

[PrestigeMiniHorses]

I don't know really what to say other than that its a bad idea to close the registry... I am strongly against it

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

The problem I have with the way AMHA does the hardshipping is that no matter if the bloodlines are known or not they are listed as Unknown. I am not sure what AMHR's policy is.

AMHR DOES put the sire and dam's name on the papers and then "AMHA" under it. They do it for the Shetlands hardshipped, too.

Lucy

 

[JWC sr.]

That makes a whole lot more sense to me anyway. Thanks Lucy. I wasn't sure how they handled it.