Color Question

[Barnmother]

All the discussions on color have really peaked my interest. What color would you consider this horse?

His Grandsire was Bay, bred to a buckskin. Sire shows as brown. Dam is Chestnut/Sorrel out of chestnut by a chestnut.

His registration papers of all things say Black. I think that is a genetic impossibility and I would call him either brown or could he possible be a smutty buckskin?

 

[Barnmother]

Now, here is his half brother (same Dam, the sorrel from a sorrel x sorrel) but his sire was Black (from buckskin x buckskin) . Papers call him a Smokey Black.

 

[Mona]

I would say he is definitely black, possibly carrying cream, making him a smokey black. $25 will tell you for sure whether he carried cream or not.

Edited to add: The horses are often misregistered for color. Maybe the horse appeared liver chestnut due to it looking "brown", as is often the case in a smokey black.

 

[Barnmother]

Mona, are you talking about the first horse or the second one?

 

[Barnmother]

Where do you go to get color testing done? It would be worth the $25.00 to get it right on their papers.

 

[Mona]

The horse in the first photo looks like he could be a smokey black, OR, he could also just be a faded black, but he sure looks black to me, and not chestnut.

 

[Barnmother]

The horse in the first photo looks like he could be a smokey black, OR, he could also just be a faded black, but he sure looks black to me, and not chestnut.

Mona, he remains the same color year around. (As does the second horse who I think is black)

 

[ohmt]

I agree with Mona

Brown to chestnut could definitely produce a black foal if neither passed along their agouti. I am guessing the sire was most likely smokey black though like Mona said and that your stallion is either smokey black or black.

 

[Mona]

I am not even sure if the registries will accept colors as identified through color testing. They would put it as black, but not smokey black. (at least that was the way it used to be) The $25 I mentioned for testing is done through a DNA color testing lab, such as UC Davis or Animal Genetics etc. That would give YOU full knowledge of his genetic color make-up. the registries really don;t care about that. However, they do charge for color changes. I am no long a member of either registry as I no longer raise minis, but you should be able to find the cost outlined on the work orders online.

 

[Barnmother]

I guess I should of added sex to the post. Post one is a gelding and post two is a stallion (as of right now).

 

[Barnmother]

Next question, what test do I order? Red Factor and Agouti and Cream Dilution? I am not familar with genetics at all outside basic colors.

 

[Lewella]

Yes, those are the tests you would want done in this instance.

What people often don't understand is that black comes in different shades just like any other color. Not all blacks are a dark inky black.

 

[Barnmother]

Tommorrow project will be to catch up the boys and pull some mane/tail hairs from each. Tests are paid for so no reason not to get it done now. (I figured paying now would mean I wouldn't put it off!)

How lo?g does it usually take to get the results? This will be like waiting for Christmas and will be kind of fun.

My next question, if I understand what I have been reading about genetics if I breed a sorrel to a cremello I will always get a palomino. If I breed a bay to a cremello I will always get a buckskin. What would happen if I breed the offspring together? Buckskin x Palomino.

I am finding this all to fasinating. If one wants to breed for Grulla, what would the parent colors have to be? Can a Grulla be guaranteed just like a Palomino or Buckskin?

 

[ohmt]

You usually get your results within a week or two-they are quick! Especially if you have them send the results to you via email. Even faster.

If you breed a bay to a cremello you won't always get buckskin, it depends on the bay's genetics. If the horse is homozygous black and agouti or heterozygous agouti with the cremello being homozygous agouti then yes, you will always get buckskin. Otherwise you could get palomino or smokey black too.

If you bred a buckskin to a palomino from the previous crosses then you would have 50% chance black based, 50% heterozygous cream, 25% homozygous cream, 25% no cream, and agouti would depend. You could get a lot of different things

If you want a guaranteed grullo/a then you could breed a homozygous black horse to a red dun or grullo/a homozygous for dun. There are different ways you could get one though. I got a grulla filly by breeding a silver red dun to a black pinto (heterozygous black).

Aren't color/pattern genetics fun? It's why I love foaling season so much. Always neat to see what i'll get!

 

[Barnmother]

And then the husband says... well I really like pintos! So now I am going to have to find a way to get a pinto buckskin or a pinto grulla so we can both be happy.

I guess before I do any breeding I should probably test the mares also! Maybe next month....

Yes I requested email results and I guess two weeks isn't that long to wait. Still going to be like waiting for Christmas!

I am really finding this all fasinating how did you guys learn so much about it? It just all starts to become mish mash to me and I consider myself to be pretty smart.

 

[supaspot]

I dont see any point in testing for red factor , as the dam was sorrel she had no choice but to pass red down to him so you know he definately carries red

have a play with this colour calculator , ita a bit of fun and will help you learn

http://www.horsetesting.com/CCalculator1.asp

 

[Lewella]

With so many silver bays misregistered as sorrel it never hurts to have a red factor test done!

 

[cretahillsgal]

I would say both horses are black (Ee). And both could possibly carry cream. Which would make them smokey black. I don't see a need to test for agouti. Because if they carried it it would show on them. They would look bay.

 

[Lewella]

The ligher black I would test for Agouti simply to deterime if it is black or if it is actually seal brown. It's color is very ambiguous and on some of the ambiguous ones the only way to determine if they are black or seal brown is testing.

 

[Barnmother]

The ligher black I would test for Agouti simply to deterime if it is black or if it is actually seal brown. It's color is very ambiguous and on some of the ambiguous ones the only way to determine if they are black or seal brown is testing.

I figured in for a penny in for a pound (or a dollar in this case) I would do Red and Agouti and creme. I agree they are probably both Ee since they had a dam that was a chestnut. Of course, I never saw her in person only a picture. I will go back and look at it again and see what I think of her color. I will let you know my take on it.