Color Question

[elizabeth.conder]

Elizabeth, your mare is beautiful.

I've been following this thread and found it interesting as I have a "black" mini that clips out grey. He is the exact color of your mare in the show picture. I am never sure what color to call him.

My bright coppery bay mini just clipped out dark grey/black. That was a surprise! He is not recognizable as the same horse. Last year he clipped out his usual bay.

Thank You

That is so interesting!

 

[paintponylvr]

When body clipped, the coat of a horse can drastically change colors. The coloring is usually distributed along the hair shaft and the length of the hair shaft will change the color. Also, you will find that some horses will change colors with changes in health, diet and age as some color is affected by all of these things.

Usually the true color of a horse is seen after body clipping and the hair has a chance to grow back (in as little as 30 days/as much as 6 months) IF the horse is in good health and is not sunburned/bleached.

Also remember that within each single color, there are multiple "shades" of that same color. AND those shades are also affected by time of year/season, health & age.

We had a non-tested (but parents were tested) silver, smoky cream - that when partially clipped as a foal literally looked "pink"... Otherwise, he'd be called tan or beige (not true horse colors) or paperbag brown. Most of the true, non-fading, black horses that I've seen body clipped - shetlands, shetland Xs, Arab & Morgan - have all been a blue/grey color (gun metal "blue" imo) - with darker legs even though they don't have true points. I've never seen a QH or Paint body clipped in person - just blanketed and they retain their "true colors" that way.

1 year (only) we had our black tobiano shetland stallion turn RED in his muzzle, flanks & elbows here in NC, the tips of his mane & streaks in his tail. We never did figure that one out! He was blood tested homozygous black/homozygous Tobiano and never sired a red foal. Lots of bays from bay gene carrying mares, several browns out of a "black" Hackney pony mare & another "black" mare whose breeding we were never able to determine (I believe the brown test has been deemed unreliable and removed from the market), a couple of blacks and silver blacks - all tobiano pintos. One outside owner swore he did sire a chestnut foal, but knowing the lines the shetland mare came from and looking at the colt produced - I state that if he were tested he'd be found to be a silver bay NOT a red horse - even though he mimics a chestnut (he has mostly white where he'd have black points, so he "looks" red! Just like one of our other ponies).

Also, when we had a shetland mare out on lease, she was pregnant. About mid-term she coliced and went septic. She was treated and on fluids - almost lost several times - the foal was expected to be lost. The mare's flaxen section of mane and tail grew in a funky shade of red before she had her colt (who turned out fine) and remained that way for well over a year...

Your mare is gorgeous but I think the only true way to know her color would be color testing and know that they are finding new colors and mutations every year, LOL.

 

[Miniv]

Elizabeth, your mare/filly's show picture is lovely. She is wonderfully balanced. I could take that picture and draw the triangles on her to show people who are learning about what to look for in good conformation. And I like her head too! AND she has the nice arching neck and looks to have a good tailset that flows off her butt.....

What stumps ME is her color. She carries a dilute gene, which always is supposed to represent itself in some way. It would be fun to cross her with a stallion who also carries the dilute gene and see what happens (color wise)..... If you do.....do me the favor of choosing a stallion who is also well proportioned. Don't breed only for color. If you do all that, I would bet the foal will be EXCITING. <3

 

[elizabeth.conder]

Elizabeth, your mare/filly's show picture is lovely. She is wonderfully balanced. I could take that picture and draw the triangles on her to show people who are learning about what to look for in good conformation. And I like her head too! AND she has the nice arching neck and looks to have a good tailset that flows off her butt.....

What stumps ME is her color. She carries a dilute gene, which always is supposed to represent itself in some way. It would be fun to cross her with a stallion who also carries the dilute gene and see what happens (color wise)..... If you do.....do me the favor of choosing a stallion who is also well proportioned. Don't breed only for color. If you do all that, I would bet the foal will be EXCITING. <3

Thank you.

I would like to see that foal too!

 

[Cayuse]

Can someone explain the dilute gene to me? Miniv☺?

Thanks.

 

[Ike]

I don't know if this helps or not but this is my smokey black mare in winter woolies, freshly clipped and summer coat. She's a pretty visual smokey black as she always looks faded or dark chestnut but I know some smokey blacks can just look plain black. By the way she is also out of a black sire and a palomino dam. I finally broke down and had this girl tested because she always just had an odd color.

 

[elizabeth.conder]

I don't know if this helps or not but this is my smokey black mare in winter woolies, freshly clipped and summer coat. She's a pretty visual smokey black as she always looks faded or dark chestnut but I know some smokey blacks can just look plain black. By the way she is also out of a black sire and a palomino dam. I finally broke down and had this girl tested because she always just had an odd color.

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Wow, the color looks very similar! She is beautiful!

 

[paintponylvr]

Can someone explain the dilute gene to me? Miniv☺?

Thanks.

The cream gene is considered an incomplete dilute. It works on both red & black horses as well as bays (which are black based).

Black + 1 cream = smokey black

Bay + 1 cream = buckskin

Red (chestnut/sorrel) + 1 cream = palomino - CAN carry 1 & pass on a bay gene EVEN though will not see bay on the palomino/red base. Can carry and pass on a silver gene that will not be seen on red.

Black + 2 creams = smoky cream - 100% cream gene producer - always a single cream gene passes from this parent

Bay + 2 creams = perlino - 100% cream gene producer - always a single cream gene passes from this parent

Red (chestnut/sorrel) + 2 cream = cremello - 100% cream gene producer - always a single cream gene passes from this parent. Can carry & pass on a bay gene EVEN though will not see bay on the palomino/red base. Can carry and pass on a silver gene that will not be seen on red.

The silver gene can be carried but not seen in coat color of a red based (chestnut/sorrel) horse. BUT it can be passed to any foals - through several generations until a black based horse is born with the gene and displays a silver black or silver bay color. It is now known that silver can affect all black based colors - bay, brown, buckskin & dun.

There is also the Champagne gene carried in miniature horses. I'm not as familiar with it - but it is considered a dominant color gene and it will change the colors of black, bay, chestnut & cream based horses...

Horse testing dot come is a great color site for descriptions. I have a color post on our articles page. There are many other genetic, color websites out there. I believe I have a couple listed on our links, as well.

**********

W/O testing - we now know that Taff is truly a silver buckskin as her 2017 colt by a bay stallion is silver bay. Her son could actually carry two bay genes - if used as a sire (he will not be), he could be a 100% bay gene producer.



Her 2012 colt by a chestnut stallion was a palomino that could have carried a silver gene.



Kechi is a tested Cremello. She carries a bay gene. So her color test looks like this - ee (red), Aa (carries a bay gene), CrCr (2 cream genes). She will always give a "little e" (red) gene and a cream (Cr) gene. She was bred to the same bay tobiano stallion that produced the silver bay tobiano colt above and produced a buckskin tobiano filly. We could breed her to our black tobiano stallion, Echo, (Ee,aa, TT) and still get a buckskin tobiano since SHE can pass on the bay gene that he doesn't have. The black stallion to her could also sire a palomino tobiano as he is heterozygous black (Ee) and could pass on his "little e" (red). He will always sire a tobiano foal out of her.





Toro, the stallion that sired the buckskin tobiano filly & also the silver bay colt above is not color tested. However - his sire, AJ, was - EE, aa, TT. His dam, Magic, wasn't - but would have been E?, Aa, T? based on her coloring (bay tobiano) and the fact that she produced 2 black tobiano foals w/ AJ (so only 1 bay gene). So his color looks like this - E?, Aa, T?. I'm beginning to wonder if he is homozygous for both black (E) and tobiano (T), but won't know for a while by production records or until we have him color tested.

 

[paintponylvr]

I don't know if this helps or not but this is my smokey black mare in winter woolies, freshly clipped and summer coat. She's a pretty visual smokey black as she always looks faded or dark chestnut but I know some smokey blacks can just look plain black. By the way she is also out of a black sire and a palomino dam. I finally broke down and had this girl tested because she always just had an odd color.

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Vicki has a mare that looked similar to this mare in her summer & winter coats. Sired by a palomino and out of a silver black mare. She even keeps the hair in her ears a brown/diluted color when the hair isn't trimmed. Finally drove us crazy enough to have her color tested. She is a heterozygous black - no cream and no silver. She is the "black" rump next to the silver buckskin rump...

 

[Miniv]

Can someone explain the dilute gene to me? Miniv☺?

Thanks.

All this color stuff can get complicated...... I am not great about technical terms, but in layman's terms -- The dilute gene is an "overlay" on a horse's BASE color, ie. black or red.

When a horse is carrying more than one dilute gene you can get cremello (on red) or perlino (on black). The agouti gene (bay) is similar and works with the dilute to create buckskin. Black is a dominant base color. Red is a recessive base color. All other color genes work off those.

 

[Mona]

Miniv, with double dilute, it's actually cremello on red, perlino on bay (agouti) and smokey cream on black.

All this color stuff can get complicated...... I am not great about technical terms, but in layman's terms -- The dilute gene is an "overlay" on a horse's BASE color, ie. black or red.

When a horse is carrying more than one dilute gene you can get cremello (on red) or perlino (on black). The agouti gene (bay) is similar and works with the dilute to create buckskin. Black is a dominant base color. Red is a recessive base color. All other color genes work off those.

 

[Miniv]

Yes Mona....That's what I said.....but you said it better....I said when a horse is carrying more than one dilute gene....etc....The term "double dilute" is probably more accurate. And yes...agouti gene does play a MAJOR role. Like I said.....It can get complicated...... Do you think the term "overlay" is a good way to describe all this?

 

[Mona]

What I meant as a correction, was that you said "perlino on black"...perlino is double dilute on bay though, not black. Smokey cream is what is double dilute on black.

Yes Mona....That's what I said.....but you said it better....I said when a horse is carrying more than one dilute gene....etc....The term "double dilute" is probably more accurate. And yes...agouti gene does play a MAJOR role. Like I said.....It can get complicated...... Do you think the term "overlay" is a good way to describe all this?