Color Test Results are in For Marbles

[Riverdance]

Marbles color test results are in................. She is a smokey black roan brindle..............So much for the bucksin type color that she was born with

Oh, and a recessive agouti gene. So the light stripes on her face and legs is just the roaning gene gone crazy.

Like any roan, which has a 50% chance of producing roan, Marbles has a 50% chance of producing brindles, especially if I breed her back to her sire.

Since her sire is a smutty buckskin, I am thinking the smutty gene has something to do with her brindle pattern too.

There is more testing to be done, more hair samples and a nasal swab have been sent in, but so far....she is a true brindle and not a chimera.

For those of you coming to the World Show, come take a look at her. She will be in the Burnet building stalls 351 to 357.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

So there's a test for Brindle?

 

[Riverdance]

There is not a test for brindle, it is her markings that make her a brindle.

 

[Charley]

This is all so interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Had the cross of her sire and dam been done before? Aand what were the results then if it was? Have you bred her dam and sire again for a foal next year?

 

[Riverdance]

This is all so interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Had the cross of her sire and dam been done before? Aand what were the results then if it was? Have you bred her dam and sire again for a foal next year?

Yes, the cross had been done twice before. I got palomino fillies and lost both of them. One was born with a kink in her neck and at 4 moths old it paralized her and I had to put her down. The other, mom did not show signs of being ready to foal, so I had her outside near the barn. It rained that night (stalls were full with other mares that seemed closer). She had the filly outside (non of the inside mares foaled, go figure). When I came out the filly was dead. It seemed that she had been up and nursing, but was dead in a mud puddle whenI foucnd her. I think mom must have gotten into a kicking match with another mare and the poor filly was in the middle and got kicked.

I did not repeat the breeding as at the time I did not know that Marbles was a brindle, so mom was bred to my palomino. Chances are though, I could do this breeding over and over till the end of time and never get another brindle. They are that rare.

It would be fun though to see if Marbles can reproduce herself. That is what happened in the quarter horse world. A brindle was born and they bred it. 50% chance of a brindle foal and they soon started getting some. Unfortunatly, I am getting older, though I would love to try breeding for brindles, there are not that many more years that I will be able to do this by myself. Perhaps 10 at best.

It Su...s getting old!

 

[Mona]

I don't understand how she can carry agouti if she is a smokey black? If black based and carrying agouti and cream, it should make her buckskin. Can you explain??

 

[Magic]

I don't understand how she can carry agouti if she is a smokey black? If black based and carrying agouti and cream, it should make her buckskin. Can you explain??

I'm confused about that too. I thought that agouti couldn't be recessive; if they have it, it shows (as in making them a bay or a buckskin instead of a black). Or am I wrong?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Mona, RD said the filly is recessive for Agouti, so I guess she is aa??

So the Brindle markings are being caused by....what??

Cream??

Possibly she is Roan, but even then, it's a pretty funky Roan, and, normally, Smoky Black Roan is pretty hard to tell form Black Roan....

I would like to know if she is, like most Brindles, a chimers.

I would also like to know how come the AMHA will register as Brindle when they can't get Silver Buckskin right

But that is a whole 'nother story.

 

[Mona]

Mona, RD said the filly is recessive for Agouti, so I guess she is aa??

Oh, OK, thanks. I thought aa was "non-agouti", and "recessive" was carried in red based horses but could not produce bay/buckskin etc. unless bred to a black based horse.

I thought if a horse carried agouti and were black based they HAD to exhibit it phenotypically.

 

[HGFarm]

ACK!!! Very interesting but my head is starting to spin again, LOL This color stuff is amazing...

 

[Riverdance]

Mona, RD said the filly is recessive for Agouti, so I guess she is aa??

This is the agouti result they sent back to me.

Agouti Result:

a/a - Only recessive allele detected. Black pigment distributed uniformly. Basic color is black in the absence of other modifying genes.

They told me her dominant color is smokey black and roan.

So the Brindle markings are being caused by....what??Cream??

The brindle is not caused by the cream gene, but the smokey black is. The brindle is a freak of nature, possibly caused by the smutty gene that her sire has (thus the dorsal strip down her back, as she is not a dun. Her sire has the doral strip too as well as some smutty coloring on the neck and around the face). Most of the true brindles seem to carry the smutty gene.

Possibly she is Roan, but even then, it's a pretty funky Roan, and, normally, Smoky Black Roan is pretty hard to tell form Black Roan....

Yes, she has the roan gene and it is pretty funky what it did to her. I was pretty sure she was carrying the smokey black gene as she has dilute eyes and the stripes are smokey black in color. She also has blond in her mane and tail as do most of my smokey blacks. Their manes and tails seem to bleach out somewhat blondish. Windchaser has given me many smokey blacks with blondish manes and tails.

I would like to know if she is, like most Brindles, a chimers.

Actually, not all brindles are chimeras. Those that are can not reproduce themselves. At first the Universidty of California Davis thought Marbles was, because she has light stripes on her legs and face too. But so far, all of the testing that they have done with her does not indicate that she is a chimera. They are running a few more tests. Sometimes they may still be chimeras, but will not show different DNA except in some internal organs.

At this time, they feel that Marbles should be able to reproduce herself.

I would also like to know how come the AMHA will register as Brindle when they can't get Silver Buckskin right

But that is a whole 'nother story.

Actually, John Eberth got involved with this one and AMHA was told that she has to be registered a brindle. There is no other way to discribe her.

I just got in from clipping her down again. She is just amazing in her markings all over her body!!

Unfortunatly, because of the colic surgery, she still has a pot belly that makes her look wormy. That will probably not correct itself till next year.

 

[SampleMM]

Sue, I am so excited that Marbles will be at the World Show. I am definitely stopping by to say hi!!

 

[luv2ridesaddleseat]

I sure hope the world show will be live on the internet! I can't wait to see her in a color class! Jeeze, can you imagine the judges looks???? I just can't imagine!!!

 

[Riverdance]

Sue, I am so excited that Marbles will be at the World Show. I am definitely stopping by to say hi!!

I look forward to seeing you.

I sure hope the world show will be live on the internet! I can't wait to see her in a color class! Jeeze, can you imagine the judges looks???? I just can't imagine!!!

I am still debating about putting her in color class. They do take into consideration conformation. She has a beautiful head, long slim neck, high tailset, but...... has a pot belly right now from the surgery and has not filled in as much as I would have liked her to on the topline. She lost so much weight during her illness, that it has been a struggle to get it back on. The belly looks wormy, though it isn't. I am not sure if the judges would put her up looking like this. Maybe I should wait until next year.

Plus, though she will walk on a lead, she will surely not let me set her up unless I work with her every day at the show.

I am sure that I will be talked into it, but still, I hate to be showing her with that pot belly.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

She would have to go in Solid Colour though, and that would probably go against her??

The Agouti is absent, not recessive, Mona is quite right.

So she is not exhibiting Agouti, as it only hides in Red.

It is, I feel, going to be the Roan that has caused the Brindle markings, which will probably mean she will pass that on, but not necessarily in Brindle form.

As far as I know very few of the Brindles registered are non Chimeras....Catch a Bird was never tested (As far as I know) he did throw Roans, but no Brindles.

It will be interesting to see how this one comes out.

Also, I am pretty sure they are close to isolating a test for Roan, now that will have repercussions!

 

[madmax]

She would have to go in Solid Colour though, and that would probably go against her??
The Agouti is absent, not recessive, Mona is quite right.

So she is not exhibiting Agouti, as it only hides in Red.

It is, I feel, going to be the Roan that has caused the Brindle markings, which will probably mean she will pass that on, but not necessarily in Brindle form.

As far as I know very few of the Brindles registered are non Chimeras....Catch a Bird was never tested (As far as I know) he did throw Roans, but no Brindles.

It will be interesting to see how this one comes out.

Also, I am pretty sure they are close to isolating a test for Roan, now that will have repercussions!

 

[madmax]

I tried to edit the above post, no luck, so I am repeating my reply.

i recieved a color report yesterday on my black roan brindle mare, Mistys Irish Lullaby, and one report was labeled 'Roan Zygosity Test', stated she had one roan gene, so looks there is one now. Also, they did use the phrase 'agouti recessive' on her, she is black based.

 

[Riverdance]

As far as I know very few of the Brindles registered are non Chimeras....Catch a Bird was never tested (As far as I know) he did throw Roans, but no Brindles.

You need to go on line and do some research regarding brindle. In the quarterhorse world they have been successfully breeding brindles. They are NOT chimeras as chimeras can not reproduce themselves.

The brindling seems to be coming from the smutty gene, not the roan gene. The roan gene in Marbles only enhances her markings and coloring. She has the stripe thing going on in spades, even on her legs and face.

Also, I am pretty sure they are close to isolating a test for Roan, now that will have repercussions

They have isolated the roan test: Below is Marbles roan test results.

N/Rn - Horse has one copy of the Roan gene. Horse will transmit Roan gene to 50% of the offspring.

The Agouti is absent, not recessive, .......So she is not exhibiting Agouti, as it only hides in Red.

She is an a/a for Agouti meaning recessive. Below is Marbles test for Agouti. Have you ever noticed a black that fades, you can still see the black in their legs even when their body becomes a reddish tint.

Agouti Result:

a/a - Only recessive allele detected. Black pigment distributed uniformly. Basic color is black in the absence of other modifying genes.

It is, I feel, going to be the Roan that has caused the Brindle markings, which will probably mean she will pass that on, but not necessarily in Brindle form.

Again, the brindling seems to be coming from the smutty gene in her, the roan gene just enhances it. , According to The University of California Davis, Marbles has a 50/50 chance of passing on her Brindling, , especially if bred back to her sire. (or perhaps another horse with smutty coloring). Marbles also carries the roan gene (if you carry it, you are a roan as it is not recessive, an N/N test result would be a homozygus roan, thus producing roans 100% of the time. Marbles and her dam are N/Rn, so they can produce roan or not and only 50% of the time. Marbles dam has produced 5 foals, only 2 carried the roan gene. Since Marbles is a roan, she can also pass that gene on 50% of the time. So, depending on what Marbles throws in her genes, she could through another brindle roan like herself, or, she could throw just a brindle.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Agouti may well be reported as being recessive but that is just a term.

In reality Agouti either affects or does not affect.

If it is absent, as it is in Marbles, it will not affect her black in any way.

It does not account for fading black.

If it is present, either in h/Z or H/Z form it will turn a black Bay, if it is not present, as it is not in Marbles, it will not affect nor can it be passed on.

I have seen the QH brindle breeding, I am aware of it.

If, and the word here is "if" Marbles is not Chimeric, she would have a 50/50 chance of passing on Brindle, like the other Brindle Minis we saw on the original thread.

Either way it will be interesting to see what happens.

(I have to say, personally, I am quite interested in Chimeric animals, hence the emphasis on this

)

 

[Riverdance]

(I have to say, personally, I am quite interested in Chimeric animals, hence the emphasis on this )

I am interested in them too. Just because so far they have not found proof that Marbles is not a chimera, does not mean she isn't. I have sent in more mane and tail samples, different body hair samples and a nasal swab for them to test. But, if the different DNA is only found in some of her internal organs, then they will not be able to tell. The only other way they can possibly tell is when Marbles has foals. If their DNA doesn not match up with hers.

So, only time will tell.

But... from what I have read on Brindles, more are not chimeric than those that are.