Comparison of responsible and not-so-responsible breeders

[Magic]

I came across this "Comparison of Responsible Breeders and "Backyard" Breeders (which I prefer to call "Irresponsible Breeders") It is directed at dog breeders, but many of the points I believe are very valid, just exchange the words "dogs" and "pups" with "horses" and "foals". Some I don't necessarily agree with, but I will chime in later in the thread with my opinions. Link is here: http://www.lgd.org/l...rcomparison.htm I tried to copy and past the chart in my post itself but it looked like just a jumble; if anyone else is able to do so, have at it!

So what are everyone's thoughts on this?,

 

[Lizzie]

You reminded me that I wrote something similar, several years ago for Gypsy Horses, although it applies to any breed really. You can see it here..

http://www.harlequinfarmsgypsyhorses.com/BreederComparisons.html

If anyone wishes to copy it or add to it for their websites, you have my permission.

I wish all horse and dog breeders, would really take a careful look at their breeding practices. It doesn't take much of a brain, to put animals together with working repoductive organs and pump out puppies or foals of questionable quality. It does take responsibility to the breed/s we are supposed to love and consideration for those breeds, after we are gone.

Lizzie

 

[targetsmom]

Thank you for posting - I agree that most of it (with wording changes) could apply just as well to horses or minis. Well, except the part about raising puppies indoors!!

The one I don't agree with (and maybe because I don't know much about dog breeding) is A Responsible Breeder "Rarely repeats a breeding". This seems to be extremely common in mini breeding and I guess I don't see why not, if you like what you get.

The one that I think may be overlooked - but is very important to us - is Responsible breeders only breed animals with stable temperaments.

Looking forward to reading other comments.

 

[ohmt]

I can't check out the article just yet-my phone is being difficult, but I will soon. One thing i'd like to say, and i'm sure it's in the article too, GELD GELD GELD!! has anyone noticed how many intact stallions and colts are being offered on the saleboard and in auctions. Some auctions it's almost 50% stallions-that's crazy! We can NOT move forward until people get past their fear of gelding. It just can not happen. Geld and train. Now, I am still trying to convince my grandparents to geld more. It has taken some doing and it will take more. I only have so much say in such matters. But these past few years have been better. We have gelded almost 10 which makes me incredibly happy. A step in the right direction for us. I hear the excuse that gelding costs too much. If you can't afford to geld the colts your breeding, should you really be breeding in the first place? I know some sell in gelding contracts only in those cases, but to ensure that colt gets gelded, you need to do it yourself. I just set a date to have a few colts gelded next month. Can't wait! I will also be participating in AMHR s Super Gelding program. Almost there

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

HOW ABOUT ADDING:

Good breeder doesn't sell his animals without their papers in hand and complete.

Bad breeder: What papers?

 

[Driving Miss Dixie]

Last spring when I gelded my colt, it cost me $450 with the farm call and the sedation drugs. I think this is a big hurdle for those that want to do the right thing. I was so shocked at the cost I called around, and they told me it was the cost of the drugs that made it so expensive. In the future, I will only buy geldings or mares.

 

[targetsmom]

It also cost me $450 to geld our colt last year - simple procedure, no complications, I have since learned that it is cheaper to take the colt to the large animal hospital 2 hours away, but I guess that depends on how much gas costs! Anyway, I don't see how anyone can make money breeding minis these days - responsible or irresponsible breeder.

 

[chandab]

Wow, I can't believe what others have to pay for gelding, its ridiculous. Nine years ago, I gelded an AQHA yearling, it was $90-95; the following year I had another AQHA yearling gelded, he was about $100 for the basic gelding, plus a few dollars for a minor complication. Last year, I had my 7 year old mini stallion gelded, it was about $115 and he needed a little extra sedation (I did haul him 150 miles to the closest clinic with more facilities than the local vets, so add gas to that if you must). These were all pretty much just straight-forward gelds with nothing special/extra needed.

I can see why not too many breeders want to pay for gelding before a colt leaves, if the proceedure costs more than what a colt can sell for in some cases.

 

[Katiean]

I do not agree with the show record part of your example. The reason is, it only proves that the owners of those horses had the money to show. So what I take from the statement is if you have money, you are a responsible breeder Horse, Dog, Cat, Whatever.... If you don't have the money to show you are a backyard breeder.

 

[Minimor]

We fortunately have very reasonable gelding rates here. For a Mini it is around $70 plus the farm call fee--I usually get 3 or 4 done at once, so the $65 farm call (vet comes from an hour away) is divided amongst 3-4 horses. Crypt surgery is $300 to $400 for the Minis.

I have to say that I don't think the high cost of gelding is any excuse for selling intact colts that are not stallion quality. If you can't afford to geld them, then don't raise them. What is the point of raising a bunch of colts that aren't worth well over what it costs to geld them? People on here complain about how many stallions are out there, and about how badly the market is flooded with low priced horses yet they then turn around and say they have to sell their colts cheap because they cannot afford to geld them prior to selling them. What is wrong with that picture??

I know people in the big horse world who would sell only their very best colts as stallions. All others were gelded prior to being sold. The few that did get sold as stallions the breeder was very careful about who he sold to--he wouldn't let the horse go to the guy down the road because he didn't want that young stallion being competition for the sire. If the neighbors wanted that breeding they had to bring mares to breed to his senior stallion--they weren't going to be able to buy one of his colts. He would let a good colt go to someone on the other side of the country where it wouldn't interfere with his local market. That's not a bad strategy.

 

[Minimor]

Have to add--I do agree with katien. I maintain that a show record is not the be all and end all of breeding. I have seen National Champions that I wouldn't touch with a barge pole and I have seen outstanding horses that have never seen the inside of a show ring just because their owners didn't have the money to send them out to the shows. If I'm choosing a breeding animal I will not select the national champion that has a major conformation flaw over the non-shown horse that is exquisite. To do so would be very wrong.

Look what has happened to some of the dog breeds that have been bred for showing and nothing but showing. Some of them have major structural flaws that makes them unsound as family pets, never mind as working dogs. I have nothing at all against show animals, but I am only impressed by that show ring winner if it has excellent conformation. The show ring titles mean nothing if the horse has a locking stifle or some other conformation issue that is likely to lead to unsoundness or inability to move well.

 

[mini horse mania]

Ill chime in on the showing also...thats what happened for the boer goat.they dont have the hardiness,or maternal instincts anymore....just looks...i dont,show yet,i may next year.i know of a breeder that breeds 60+ mares a year...all reg.they are for sale still wet from birth and every story on each is the same,"great pet,breeder and show horse" ..irks my nerves,but he sells all.keeps all the mares bred back year after year,weans at 3 months,collects money,and,thats all folks...seeing his animals first hand makes me wonder why he breeds what he does..some mares are nice,some I wouldnt touch with a ten foot pole.they are all bought from auction cheap.i call that an irresponsible breeder.

 

[Minimor]

So, what would you have people do that have colts born? Put them all to sleep just because they turned out to be colts instead of hoped for fillies? That's what many breeders used to do--and probably still do--with dwarf foals.

No, I don’t mean for the colts to be put to sleep. Sell the stallion quality ones as stallion prospects, and geld the others. As I see it, if you’re raising 5 or 10 or 20 foals a year…if you cannot afford to geld however many of those come out as colts and aren’t stallion quality…then maybe one shouldn’t raise that many foals. Of course I know that anyone can have a “colt year” from time to time, but one should be prepared for that and be willing to deal with it. To me, that means being prepared to geld however many should be gelded, even if they ALL come out as colts. I know there are plenty of people that don’t like that opinion.



I’ve long been disgusted by the fact that Mini geldings aren’t worth much overall, and it simply annoys me when people say “it costs too much to geld them” and use that as a justification for selling all their colts intact. Some sell on gelding contracts but we know that those contracts are all too often not honored by buyers. The market is flooded with Minis, everyone complains about that, but those who don’t geld play a large role in creating this problem.

 

[Lizzie]

To geld or not, is such an individual decision. However, I am sure we all see tons of whole colts and stallions out there being bred, who should have been gelded. And this in every breed. However, I am also sure we see just as many mares being bred, who are far from breeding quality. How many of us actually spay our not-so-good mares? Very few I suspect, even if we geld our colts.

Many vets do seem to charge more for gelding Minis, than they do for large breed horses. In S. California, our vet bills for anything, most usually exceed those charges in other states. With Mini prices having dropped so much in the last couple of years, I can well understand that in many cases, gelding charges would exceed the money we might be able to ask for the colt. It's sort of a case that you are darned if you do and darned if you don't. Just bringing a foal to saleable age, isn't cheap. If one has paid a stud fee, then the cost exponentially rises. The breeder will seldom break even, let alone make any type of a profit. There again, few of us went into horses and breeding, with the thought we would make money. I would shudder to think of the money I have put into animals, over my lifetime.

Over the years, my daughter and I have gelded the majority of colts before sale. A few we thought would be outstanding, were left whole. Would some we gelded, have turned out to be wonderful examples of their breed? Probably, but at least we know that they are not living life as many lonely stallions or being bred to death to mares of iffy quality. And we all know, that most still will blame the sire, if offspring don't turn out very well. I also think that owners mostly tend to do more with geldings and regardless of breed, they are easier to deal with on the whole.

Selling with a gelding contract helps a little, but it never means that a colt will not be bred in the future. So in the end, it is always up to the individual breeder, as to whether he/she gelds or not.

Regarding showing. I do think it is lovely if we can afford to show our horses. Not all can obviously. I wouldn't purchase a stallion or breed to one, purely on a show record. I'd choose a quality horse over one which I felt maybe didn't deserve his show wins, any time.

Lizzie

 

[Magic]

Regarding showing. I do think it is lovely if we can afford to show our horses. Not all can obviously. I wouldn't purchase a stallion or breed to one, purely on a show record. I'd choose a quality horse over one which I felt maybe didn't deserve his show wins, any time.

Your chart is great, Lizzie, thanks for sharing it! I agree with you on the showing; it's nice if one can do it, but if it isn't possible then I would hope that a breeder would attend an occasional show to see the new trends and improvments in their chosen breed, along with keeping up on their breed's registration rules, etc. Having a "good eye" for horses and being willing to honestly critique one's own horses is highly important IMO. I also agree with those that have said that show ring isn't always beneficial to animals. IMO it's extremely important to consider health and avoiding extremes when breeding. Halter/conformation classes aren't necessarily the be-all, end all of "the best" horses-- look at Quarter Horses these days-- "halter" winners have huge bodies with spindly legs and tiny feet and are pretty much unable to do anything but stand there and look good. If you call that "good", anyway. My own definition of a good horse is one that has good conformation, nice movement (I don't mean a big trot or any speciifc type of movement, but whether a "Western" type movement or "Country", or Pleasure, a pleasing way of moving, a good mind, and at least relatively versatile.

I didn't start this thread as a way to "point fingers", but as a way for all of us to think about what may make a breeder responsible, or more responsible, and what we all may do to become more so, and to discuss our opinions.

 

[Wings]

On the issue of "to show or not to show" I must say I prefer a stallion who is proven in some way. He doesn't have to be a National Halter Champion, maybe he only gets driven locally and for fun but does the job well, maybe he only jumps/performance shows locally but does well. There are so many stallions available for purchase or use I like to see one distinguished in some way. I also think people can become a bit show blind and will use a name and a record to the extent of ignoring the animal himself.

Start with a sound mind and body and you're on the right track, those two things should never be compromised even if the horse has an impressive record.

 

[MindyLee]

Well Im going to chime in here as a stallion owner of a beautiful stallion that is NOT top quality nor has ever been shown. He's not araby or refind, he is the older draft style and I BREED HIM!!!

I do however select who he is bred to to make sure the mares pretty up the foals and so far, done pretty good. A lot of folks out there want a strong pet mini who is strong enought to pull carts BUT dont want to pay high dollers for a mini from some big wig named farm. So as a back yard breeder I breed my Bob to my nicer mares and get nice foals. Now these are foals that turn out good enough to keep and breed to my Sentra. And I reg them as well. If a colt dose come along as he's produced 2 so far in the past that I should have gelded but didnt know better back then... I will. But his fillys so far turned out really nice. So Im more then happy to breed him even if others disapprove of him just because hes drafty BUT he sure dose add other qualities to his get like sweet personalities/dispositions, strength, and beauty, and still conformationaly correct.

Here's 2 of his foals that I think turned out pretty nice.

 

[Songcatcher]

Well Im going to chime in here as a stallion owner of a beautiful stallion that is NOT top quality nor has ever been shown. He's not araby or refind, he is the older draft style and I BREED HIM!!!

I do however select who he is bred to to make sure the mares pretty up the foals and so far, done pretty good. A lot of folks out there want a strong pet mini who is strong enought to pull carts BUT dont want to pay high dollers for a mini from some big wig named farm. So as a back yard breeder I breed my Bob to my nicer mares and get nice foals. Now these are foals that turn out good enough to keep and breed to my Sentra. And I reg them as well. If a colt dose come along as he's produced 2 so far in the past that I should have gelded but didnt know better back then... I will. But his fillys so far turned out really nice. So Im more then happy to breed him even if others disapprove of him just because hes drafty BUT he sure dose add other qualities to his get like sweet personalities/dispositions, strength, and beauty, and still conformationaly correct.

Here's 2 of his foals that I think turned out pretty nice.

I find it very bothersome that some seem to think that if someone else is not following their idea (regarding type, show record, etc.) that they are an irresponsible breeder.

While I agree with several of the items listed, I find it rather arrogant that there are some who are willing to list anyone who disagrees with their ideas as Irresponsible. I would try to advise someone of my ideas if they asked for advise, but I certainly hope I never come across as telling someone that their horses are inferior or that they are irresponsible breeders.

If YOU like what you are producing and if they are well taken care of, it is your decision and not some one eles's right to tell you what you should or should not do. I recall reading that many people ridiculed Justin Morgan because his horse did not fit their mold of what they thought a horse should be. We all know how that turned out.

I am NOT saying the original poster is arrogant, but I do think who ever made the list is.

 

[MindyLee]

Oh I think the list has some truth behind it IF we replace dog to horse but not 100%.

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION and how I see it...

I giggle at all the posts all the time that say they will only buy reg horses, or something with records, or champions in their backgrounds, from known breeders, and so on and so on...

BUT just take a moment and think...EXAMPLE: WHAT if Buckeroo was never discovered. Just sat in a back yard eating grass and had no papers. LOVED and HAPPY. Produced unreg stock. Would you looked twice at him or his foals then? NO! Only cause no one would have promoted him. Otherwise a lot of folks would call him junk! To me a horse is a horse, its who makes them into a known horse and just because a horse in a back yard was bred by so n so dont mean their worth anymore then a grade horse. Top $ well pedigreed horses from show sires/dams sit in many back yards and never ever see a showring. A lot of folks dont usally look at their foals cause their not shown or only locally. I find it funny that I could take the above stallion and send him to the BEST trainer and promote the daylights out of him. He wins his classes takes champions and was excersise/starve/condition to look thinner then what he really is. Show him like crazy for 2 yrs where he win wins wins. Now all of the sudden I take this cute little nobody who I hardshiped with a so so pedigree and flant him everywhere. Folks now are drooling over him and fall in love and will do anything for his offspring. To me, thats how stars are found. Otherwise a horse can careless and dont know its so n so... he just wants to eat and poop and live. Its the folks who make a known horse known and unknown horse known... Its their dedication and sweat and blood and tons of $$$ that makes our champions today. And yes even nobodys can be somebodys too. It happens everytime a horse becomes a sombody.

This is not a rant, just how I see things. I could be wrong, I could be right... just as a unknown somebody who has so so pedigreed horses and well bred horses sees it. I love all horses, from the horses standing in my muddy pastures to the neighbors unreg grade horses, to all the show horses Ill never see in person to our beloved ones who have left this world.

 

[targetsmom]

With all due respect to the OP, I think this would be better received - and more useful to me - if this was revised to indicate "What determines a horse's price". For example, I don't think that someone who doesn't show is necessarily an irresponsible breeder, but I think a show record should be considered in setting price. I think a lot of potential buyers could learn a lot by having it listed in that way.