Confusing Splashed White & Frame Results!!

[targetsmom]

I am posting all the results together because I think two of the three horses raise some some interesting questions about blue eyes.

First is Dancer: (Buckeye WCF Last Dance), a FWF Little Wardance daughter out of a solid mare with (I believe) a wide blaze.

Dancer has 2 blue eyes and was tested for Splash and Frame:

Results (omitting SW 2 & Sw3 which are negative for all):

Frame Overo (LWO) Result:

N/N - No evidence for the altered sequence detected.

Splashed White SW-1 Result:

N/SW1 - Horse has one copy of the SW-1 mutation.

So Dancer is tobiano (visual, not tested) and splash.

Toffee (Alamos Sirs Toffee Snow), a CC Call Me Sirs daughter out of a solid mare:

Toffee has 2 (striking!) blue eyes.

This is the best pic for showing her pinto marking:

Results:

Frame Overo (LWO) Result:

N/N - No evidence for the altered sequence detected.

Splashed White SW-1 Result:

N/N - No copies of SW-1 mutation.

So Toffee (with her bright blue eyes is Tobiano, but negative for frame and splash 1!

Mira (Jones Call Me Blue Admiration), a CC Call Me Awesome daughter, out of a solid gray mare:

Mira has ONE blue eye, and has a wide blaze (really!), and some overo spots on her neck, behind her elbow and on one flank. She is a registered Pinto with a PtHA ROM in halter, but no points in color! She is Max's dam, shown with her in the photo.

Mira was previously tested positive for frame.

Current results:

Splashed White SW-1 Result:

N/N - No copies of SW-1 mutation. (negative for splash)

So, of the three mares with blue eyes, only ONE tested positive for Splash 1, one tested positive for frame, and one tested positive for NEITHER (and shows no sign of sabino roaning).

By the way, Mira and Toffee are heavy in foal to our tobiano stallion Buckshot, who is negative for frame and not tested for splash, but suspected based on his facial markings.

Would love comments....

 

[Carolyn R]

This is extremely interesting. Would have loved to had my herd tested prior to dispersing (out of curiosity), since they were a hodge podge of pinto patterns and blue eyes.

 

[Songcatcher]

Based on my personal experience, the only one of those results that is confusing to me is Toffee, with the blue eyes and negative for both Frame and Splash. Being a daughter of CC Call Me Sir (whom I am assuming is Frame) I would double check her Frame status.

Mira's blue eyes apparently come from Frame.

Based on what I can see in the photo, Buckshot does not appear to me to be Splash. I would love to see his test results.

 

[Equuisize]

Wow .... Interesting.

I am thinking we can make all kinds of assumptions, based on certain

characteristics, that we previously thought to be true.

However, unless we test, they remain nothing but assumptions.

The potential of being able to isolate more genes to explain what we think

we're seeing would sure be welcome.

 

[targetsmom]

If Buckshot isn't splash, then what causes the strip and snip? He also has white (pink) on his chin that you can't see very easily. He does not show any sabino roaning, that I can see anyway.

ETA: Call Me Sir (son of Redboy) looks to be tobiano, and could easily carry frame from Rowdy.

 

[Lizzie]

I guess I am confused now. What is 'overo' that was tested for? I never knew there was even such a pattern, let alone a test for it. You mention that Mira has overo spots. What are overo spots? I have always been told and especially by the colour gurus on the colour forum, that overo was a catch-all word for mixed patterns and originally used (I believe) by the Paint and/or pinto people. I know during the last 10 years studying the colours in Gypsies, that overo was something few use, since it is not a pattern. Except for not having Frame, Gypsies have all the same colours as Minis.

Your pretty herd, certainly is interesting. So now we are left wondering, if indeed blue eyes come from Frame, a Splash not yet discovered, Sabino or something else, not even known yet. Was Mira tested for grey?

Lizzie

 

[ohmt]

Lizzie-many often referred to frame as overo and it is easy to see that is what targetsmom meant as well. Yes, Mira is Grey.

Very interesting-thanks for sharing targetsmom! Thought for sure Toffee would test positive for frame. I do think there is much we have to learn and discover, but it is great that many are utilizing the tests we have available to help further our knowledge.

 

[targetsmom]

I will go back and edit the OP, where I copied the results exactly as reported in the e-mail. THEY used the term overo, but what I checked off on the test form was Frame, and indeed in the PDF file with complete results it is indicated as Lethal White Overo.

Mira's spots are "white" but of course do not show up because she has turned gray. She was not tested for gray but WAS color tested as EE, agouti, and silver, plus LWO+, so is genetically a silver bay frame overo. All our minis are registered with the Pinto association and I must admit that their nomenclature confuses me. As far as they are concerned, pintos are either overo or tobiano. My bad.

 

[ohmt]

I don't think you need to edit anything targetsmom. Frame is usually referred to as overo (the term is actually frame overo and not just frame). It is when people group splash and sabino into the overo group that it is technically incorrect.

so you did just fine

 

[Lizzie]

OK. I think I understand now. When said to be Overo, that = LWO/Frame. Right? And this does not include other colours, which is incorrect but widely used.

Mira certainly encompasses some colours, doesn't she. Very interesting young lady.

By the way, if anyone gets horses who test negative for LWO and SW1,2, and 3, and which have any blue eye(s) UC Davis wants to know about them because they may still have other splash mutations.

Lizzie

 

[Lizzie]

Forgot to ask. Has anyone tested for Dominant White? I think AG offers testing for W5 and 10, although I believe 11 have been identified withint that KIT gene.

Lizzie

 

[targetsmom]

I will send UC Davis a photo of Toffee, which of course was the only one that didn't fit in the box so didn't get sent the first time. They did get photos of the other two.

If anyone is curious about Toffee's sire, you can find lots of photos by Googling Cross Country Call Me Sir or just look at the January photo on the 2012 AMHA calendar. He has a wide blaze and blue eye(s), and looks tobiano from what you can see.

 

[Lewella]

#1 - The only type of sabino that is documented to cause roaning is Sb1. You can have sabino face white and leg white without roaning.

#2 - Wasn't Joanne's stallion that looked very Splash and tested negative from the same bloodlines as Toffee?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

All this is proof of, to me, is that there are a lot more Splash genes than are currently testable.

I would have said that Buckshot has Sabino, due to the symmetry of his blaze, and Splash, because it is in two halves.

I do hope they are going to go on looking .......

 

[targetsmom]

Thank you Lewella!!

1. That is not something I knew about sabino genes; I only knew that so far you could only test for Sb1. So maybe those other sabinos can cause blue eyes???

2. Great catch on the relation between Toffee and Joanne's stallion, Cross Country Blue Moon, also blued eyed and negative for frame and splash!! They are related through Redboy and Rowdy. Back to Rowdy again!!!

 

[Lewella]

Even some of my Sb1's don't have roaning

I suspect the blue eyes are going to be another Splash gene, not a Sabino gene. A Splash Arabian who is out of a deaf Splash Arabian mare has tested negative which makes it clear there are definitely more Splash genes that haven't been isolated yet! I'm starting to strongly suspect one of the Splash genes that isn't yet testable is in the Redboy line.

 

[Songcatcher]

2. Great catch on the relation between Toffee and Joanne's stallion, Cross Country Blue Moon, also blued eyed and negative for frame and splash!! They are related through Redboy and Rowdy. Back to Rowdy again!!!

OK, here is another connection, for what it is worth. My Bay mare, White Diamonds Angel Eyes, with only a roaned star and one blue eye, is also negative for both LWO and the Splashed White genes. She also goes back to Rowdy, but not through Redboy. Her maternal grandsire is NFC Rowdy Reigns Supreme, a double bred Rowdy son/grandson.

 

[targetsmom]

And speaking of bloodlines - Toffee and Mira are "cousins", as their sires are paternal half brothers. Mira's sire (Cross Country Call Me Awesome) is also sired by Redboy. Yet she is LWO+ and negative for splash.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

This is all so very interesting, but am I the only one that is getting a headache from it??

It's so complex that I don't want to think about it, yet it's fascinating so I keep coming back to see the updates to this thread. I'm not sure what that says about me.

 

[Songcatcher]

This is all so very interesting, but am I the only one that is getting a headache from it??

It's so complex that I don't want to think about it, yet it's fascinating so I keep coming back to see the updates to this thread. I'm not sure what that says about me.

It simply says it is new information and it is going to take a while to sort it out and comprehend it all. I felt the same way when I started studying color genetics, and there were fewer patterns to test for then.