Congress - Financial Woes
- Thread starter Norlea
- Start date
Help Support Miniature Horse Talk Forums:
Cedar Ridge Farm
Well-Known Member
This is not about defending ponies, or handling ponies, it is about the finances of the registry and how we need to turn the deficit of a show into a break even situation which concerns all members of the registry not just pony owners or the attendees of the Congress...
I guess we need a forum on the business of running a business. Maybe we need a forum on the finances of the registry itself and how to pay the bills of this organization or better yet "How is the Money Spent". There seems to be so many questions by members that feel go unanswered or are given wrong answers or escalate into unfounded hearsay.
No one means to offend the pony owners! The question was asked about getting straight answers from a director. I started a new topic putting it straight up on the Congress and the money lost as there was questions on how to obtain a financial picture of the Congress.
Don't mean to offend any pony owners! But it does seem we have members that are offended we have this situation year after year.
I guess we need a forum on the business of running a business. Maybe we need a forum on the finances of the registry itself and how to pay the bills of this organization or better yet "How is the Money Spent". There seems to be so many questions by members that feel go unanswered or are given wrong answers or escalate into unfounded hearsay.
No one means to offend the pony owners! The question was asked about getting straight answers from a director. I started a new topic putting it straight up on the Congress and the money lost as there was questions on how to obtain a financial picture of the Congress.
Don't mean to offend any pony owners! But it does seem we have members that are offended we have this situation year after year.
First of all I have owned ponies for 9 years and have never shod one and yes we show them and that includes our Modern Pleasure mare we showed.
Secondly if you have never owned a pony you really cannot make the above statement. Great childrens ponies are NOT few and far between and we have entire families that show with their kids and grandkids.
But anyway that is not what this topic is about. Its about making Congress at least break even and hopefully someday make a profit. I have been told for years that no one really wants Congress to make a profit. Obviously if you keep moving a show you are going to decrease attendance. And if you spend ZERO dollars promoting and advertising that show you are not doing it right. And you have to have a negotiator that deals with the facilities to get the best deal. I dont know who negotiated our 2nd year at Cloverdale but wow we so overpaid for that facility
If you read the report there are several figures that do not make sense so Im not sure what to think.
ruffian
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2002
- Messages
- 3,500
- Reaction score
- 17
'Secondly if you have never owned a pony you really cannot make the above statement. Great childrens ponies are NOT few and far between and we have entire families that show with their kids and grandkids.
But anyway that is not what this topic is about. Its about making Congress at least break even and hopefully someday make a profit. I have been told for years that no one really wants Congress to make a profit. Obviously if you keep moving a show you are going to decrease attendance. And if you spend ZERO dollars promoting and advertising that show you are not doing it right. And you have to have a negotiator that deals with the facilities to get the best deal. I dont know who negotiated our 2nd year at Cloverdale but wow we so overpaid for that facility sad.gif
If you read the report there are several figures that do not make sense so Im not sure what to think."
It is what this thread is about. Why isn't Congress paying for itself. Because the pony isn't as popular as the miniature horse. It isn't, in many cases, as easy to handle or show. So fewer people have them, fewer people show them, and the pony shows don't make money.
That said - ASPC/AMHR needs to decide if we want to continue to carry the cost of the Congress and World show. Do we want to carry the costs of having ASPC/AMHR local shows where 2-4 ponies show up and 80 - 100 miniatures show up. I am not as I said against ponies. I am very impressed when they go flying around the ring full throttle in cart. But I am not impressed when there are 100 classes on the show bill and 2 ponies on the grounds.
It's not fair to the miniature people to pay for the ribbons that go unused year after year.
It's very difficult to understand costs without reviewing the full report. Those interested need to contact the office and get a copy. In these tough economic times belts need to be tightened. We as a registry cannot keep throwing money away when the exhibitors clearly aren't supporting the shows.
But anyway that is not what this topic is about. Its about making Congress at least break even and hopefully someday make a profit. I have been told for years that no one really wants Congress to make a profit. Obviously if you keep moving a show you are going to decrease attendance. And if you spend ZERO dollars promoting and advertising that show you are not doing it right. And you have to have a negotiator that deals with the facilities to get the best deal. I dont know who negotiated our 2nd year at Cloverdale but wow we so overpaid for that facility sad.gif
If you read the report there are several figures that do not make sense so Im not sure what to think."
It is what this thread is about. Why isn't Congress paying for itself. Because the pony isn't as popular as the miniature horse. It isn't, in many cases, as easy to handle or show. So fewer people have them, fewer people show them, and the pony shows don't make money.
That said - ASPC/AMHR needs to decide if we want to continue to carry the cost of the Congress and World show. Do we want to carry the costs of having ASPC/AMHR local shows where 2-4 ponies show up and 80 - 100 miniatures show up. I am not as I said against ponies. I am very impressed when they go flying around the ring full throttle in cart. But I am not impressed when there are 100 classes on the show bill and 2 ponies on the grounds.
It's not fair to the miniature people to pay for the ribbons that go unused year after year.
It's very difficult to understand costs without reviewing the full report. Those interested need to contact the office and get a copy. In these tough economic times belts need to be tightened. We as a registry cannot keep throwing money away when the exhibitors clearly aren't supporting the shows.
Seriously what all of us members need to truly be upset about is the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars spent on horsestudbook.com That makes Congress loses look tiny compared to what we have spent on that program.
I have seen a huge upswing in the amount of new people buying Shetland ponies so the future is bright for the American Shetland pony. And as Lewellas post shows that is a fantastic number showing up at Congress given the huge disparity in Shetland vs Miniature numbers.
How many ponies show up locally has a lot to do with the area you live in and the classes offered. We have good numbers here. I have been asked to attend other new shows that added pony classes and I would love to do that but you have to put together a good class list to get people to attend. Too many that add pony classes add the bare minimum which makes it not financially feasible for people like me to bring their ponies.
There is for sure a better way to put on Congress. But I am not a director so cannot do much except email or call my directors and give my input which I do all the time
I have seen a huge upswing in the amount of new people buying Shetland ponies so the future is bright for the American Shetland pony. And as Lewellas post shows that is a fantastic number showing up at Congress given the huge disparity in Shetland vs Miniature numbers.
That statement is very telling and people really need to look at that.
How many ponies show up locally has a lot to do with the area you live in and the classes offered. We have good numbers here. I have been asked to attend other new shows that added pony classes and I would love to do that but you have to put together a good class list to get people to attend. Too many that add pony classes add the bare minimum which makes it not financially feasible for people like me to bring their ponies.
There is for sure a better way to put on Congress. But I am not a director so cannot do much except email or call my directors and give my input which I do all the time
Bob,
Several have tried to look at combining both the Congress and Mini Nationals at Tulsa. Congress is only five days, where Mini Nationals is eleven days. Some people claim they can't take off work that much and the trainers are saying they can't haul both types of horses. If I was with a trainer and I wanted my horses to attend, I would have NO problem hauling my horses for my trainer to get them to the show if we did combine the two. I would bet there would be a lot of folks that would try their darnest to get them there. We even could mix the Shetland classes into the Miniature classes just like they do at the local level, still run and eleven day show and we can call it a "World" Show now. Most of the people that are hired with the exception of the judges also run mini nationals. Now we can hire the number of judges needed to judge both types of horses, but those horses that are double registered WOULD have to choose which way they are going to show, just like they do on the local level. One year they can show as miniatures, the next year as a Shetland. Then I think we could start seeing some turn around in cost.
Again, this is just something to think about.
Karen
Several have tried to look at combining both the Congress and Mini Nationals at Tulsa. Congress is only five days, where Mini Nationals is eleven days. Some people claim they can't take off work that much and the trainers are saying they can't haul both types of horses. If I was with a trainer and I wanted my horses to attend, I would have NO problem hauling my horses for my trainer to get them to the show if we did combine the two. I would bet there would be a lot of folks that would try their darnest to get them there. We even could mix the Shetland classes into the Miniature classes just like they do at the local level, still run and eleven day show and we can call it a "World" Show now. Most of the people that are hired with the exception of the judges also run mini nationals. Now we can hire the number of judges needed to judge both types of horses, but those horses that are double registered WOULD have to choose which way they are going to show, just like they do on the local level. One year they can show as miniatures, the next year as a Shetland. Then I think we could start seeing some turn around in cost.
Again, this is just something to think about.
Karen
Umm how about cause bottom line it is not talking ponies it is talking dollars and we all know the facts are the facts and WE THE MINIATURE HORSE REGISTRY fund the ASPC/ASPR registry that is the facts no disputing them.
We funded the losses year after year while the show expenses grow, we funded the Ohio World show for years so please do not tell me this does not involve us (by the way I have a pony and am a "pony" person as well) this involves our registry.
Take a step back here and tell me honestly.. do you think if Nationals was losing this much money year after year that the much smaller and much less financially supportive ASPC portion of our registry would sit back quietly?
It is not about pitting one against the other it is about looking at the facts letting all those know about the facts and then trying to figure out how to not get rid of Congress but instead make Congress a show that is profitable not losing thousand upon thousands of dollars.
Last edited by a moderator:
Minimor
Well-Known Member
ruffian--buy generic ribbons--most shows have extra ribbons on hand, so if they all look the same what does it matter which classes don't use them??? Our local show just buys ribbons that say "Manitoba International" No year, no class names, no Shetland/Miniature designation. Works very well.
Ponies aren't really so different to handle. People that haven't had them just THINK they are more difficult, because of the pony's reputation for being disagreeable and hard to handle. People think Minis are "horses" and so believe that they are nothing like ponies. In reality they're all about the same. Just like minis, where some are quieter and some are hotter, ponies also come in all sorts, from "plug" to hot, and anywhere in between.
Ponies aren't really so different to handle. People that haven't had them just THINK they are more difficult, because of the pony's reputation for being disagreeable and hard to handle. People think Minis are "horses" and so believe that they are nothing like ponies. In reality they're all about the same. Just like minis, where some are quieter and some are hotter, ponies also come in all sorts, from "plug" to hot, and anywhere in between.
1) Proposal: Have members sell sponsorships to the show. If a member sells a $250 sponsorship they get one free stall for the show. If they sell $500 sponsor, they get a free stall and a one class entry free. Etc. Get some income. Did I see somewhere that we only had $450 in sponsors?????? If so, that is pitiful I've run OPEN shows where I've had more income in sponsorships than that.
2) forgive me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is the same person(s) have been in charge of Congress for a number of years. Why isn't a change of management being addressed?
3) sell stalls in advance. If you want a primo spot you pay a primo price. Stalls near the in gate- or other blocks of primo spots could go for $85/stall vs. $65 for any randomly assigned stalls
4) Congress info/ entry info came out WAAY TOO LATE this year. It needs to be out, IN FULL, by June 1. Not 1/2 of it by July 10th and the rest of it later.(didn't find exhibitor rules/info for 2 weeks after entries came out)
5) yes, entry fees are too low. I hate to say it, but our local shows are more expensive. all fees need to go up by $10 - maybe by $5 the first year to prepare everyone rather than give us all "sticker shock".
6) When the business if hurting you don't just up your fees- you will lose the rest of your customer base- you have to give something back in return. How about getting local restaurants to donate gift certificates for free meals or BOGO meals. Have daily drawings for those gift certs. The local economy gets a boost for having us there. Exhibitors have a chance at a free meal. ASPC doesn't have to pay more money out to give something to their exhibitors.
just some random thoughts.......I can probably come up with more later
2) forgive me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is the same person(s) have been in charge of Congress for a number of years. Why isn't a change of management being addressed?
3) sell stalls in advance. If you want a primo spot you pay a primo price. Stalls near the in gate- or other blocks of primo spots could go for $85/stall vs. $65 for any randomly assigned stalls
4) Congress info/ entry info came out WAAY TOO LATE this year. It needs to be out, IN FULL, by June 1. Not 1/2 of it by July 10th and the rest of it later.(didn't find exhibitor rules/info for 2 weeks after entries came out)
5) yes, entry fees are too low. I hate to say it, but our local shows are more expensive. all fees need to go up by $10 - maybe by $5 the first year to prepare everyone rather than give us all "sticker shock".
6) When the business if hurting you don't just up your fees- you will lose the rest of your customer base- you have to give something back in return. How about getting local restaurants to donate gift certificates for free meals or BOGO meals. Have daily drawings for those gift certs. The local economy gets a boost for having us there. Exhibitors have a chance at a free meal. ASPC doesn't have to pay more money out to give something to their exhibitors.
just some random thoughts.......I can probably come up with more later
Last edited by a moderator:
LaVern
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2004
- Messages
- 1,299
- Reaction score
- 34
I sure do applaud those that dare bring this money issue up. It is not about fighting and pitting ponies against minis. It is about making sure that we have money in the bank. I grew up on the Depression stories, and I guess they stuck. We have been told over and over that there were days where the Shetland directors had to take money out of their own pockets to keep the office going, that has stuck too. I have been broke for 30 years, things are about the same here, but have alway been proud to be a member of financially sound organization like AMHR and want to be sure that it stays that way.
Oh, some used to grumble about "those tight Old Pony Boy Directors" and how conservative they were, I was always so glad that they were.
I used to think that it was wrong that the directors could overrule the votes at convention. I don't anymore. Sometimes I think that we get gunhoe on something and pass it with out thinking it through.
I have said it before and I don't know how a show manager could ever pull it off, but I think that we will have to look at joining the Nationals and the Congress up. Maybe run classes at the same time. I think the biggest problem, with that though would be sharing MARK.
Oh, some used to grumble about "those tight Old Pony Boy Directors" and how conservative they were, I was always so glad that they were.
I used to think that it was wrong that the directors could overrule the votes at convention. I don't anymore. Sometimes I think that we get gunhoe on something and pass it with out thinking it through.
I have said it before and I don't know how a show manager could ever pull it off, but I think that we will have to look at joining the Nationals and the Congress up. Maybe run classes at the same time. I think the biggest problem, with that though would be sharing MARK.
Last edited by a moderator:
An additional thought: How about having the Congress be OCAP eligible? That is a point earning opportunity for ponies (& minis) that are also registered in PtHA. All the more reason to go show at Congress if you can pick up OCAP points.
ASPR incentives are helping convince me to take my ASPR filly next year. Why not have incentives for others as well? OCAP is one. We can come up with more.
ASPR incentives are helping convince me to take my ASPR filly next year. Why not have incentives for others as well? OCAP is one. We can come up with more.
This may just then be your oportunity to jump in and support the congress. The former donators have decided that they no longer want to support the incentive since thier congress is moving to a more central location. So they are now looking for new sponsors of the incentives. I will be donating to the 2010 congress, will you?
I definately agree that entry fees and office fees need to be raised. But we need to figure out why it is costing $ 250 a horse to operate the congress. There is not another show besides R Nationals that have totals this high for a perhorse accounting.
This is not a mini verses difficult pony issue. It is obvious that we don't have as many ponies registered or showing on a local level but if you do look at what Lewella put we probably have better ratio's than what you want to beleive, considering that 1/2 of what is registered is half of the numbers that show up to the congress. Imagine if you had half of what is registered in the mini registry show up to the R Nationals... As for local shows we don't really offer alot of pony shows here in Ca, but every year at the Area 7 show we have double the ponies show up verses the minis so I think it depends on where you have the show. This year I went as far as Minnesota to show, and it was thier first ever pony show, they had a good turn out for ponies, there was only one class I showed in that did not have competition.
Also as a pony owner I do take offense to the fact that the mini registry is saving the pony registry, first off there would not be a mini registry if it weren't for a pony registry, secondly we would not have the same office operating expenses if there was a pony only registry. This is not about that, what this is about is the fact that Congress needs to break even.
As for promoting the show, I am not sure what promotion you are thinking, anyone that shows or would show knows that there is an end of the year show, and I would believe that is what we pay a marketing person for, what has she done to promote our Congress. I do think that moving it to a more central location will help, but it sure wont the first year with all the negative people from certain area's that are going to boycott the show...And to Kay the last negotiations were done by your Director in your area. I dont' think it was much of a negotiation, it was oh ok sounds good, we still have the pony show in our area type of negotiation. There was obviously no care for the expenses of the show, or the what if we actually have ponies show up and we need more than 500 stalls. The area that has had the show all these years does not want to see the show grow. As for the world show thank goodness that we are no longer sending them thousands of dollars. We can apply that to the Congress, the world show is not the congress and will never house the congress. There are much better places that would be fair to all exhibitors around the us.
The issue at hand is to figure out why we continually show a loss regardless of numbers or locations and figure out a way to make the show break even. $ 250 per horse operating fee is far too much money.
Lmequine
Well-Known Member
Well said Jennifer!
wcr
Well-Known Member
Lea-thank you for posting this. You are bringing to our attention things that need to be known. If people get a little "hot under the collar", good for them. It makes us think about the need for change and the need to tighten our belts. As I have recently posted on other threads, the registries are a BUSINESS. They need to be run in a fiscally responsible manner. In this economy they need to put on their thinking caps and look outside the box at new areas of revenue and new ways to tighten the belt or we won't have a financially stable registry. It's not about ponies vs minis, it's about sound financial practices.
Ummm how about talking to everyone then, not just mini people IF the true discussion is about how to rectify this situation rather than bashing pony people...not all pony people read this forum so it seems to only be intended to one group. That isn't my thoughts, but it must be to the one that posted. And why ask this group ONLY if not to incite some type of us vs. them mentality? How many times has a discussion like this worked for the GOOD of the organization on this forum???? What usually happens when a pony vs. mini topic comes up on the mini forum??? Someone said it was a FINANCIAL discussion...go back up and read some of the other comments. When this has come up in the past it has usually ended up in a heated discussion that comes across from a lot of folks as us vs. them. I am just saying if you want to talk about it then talk about it to everyone - don't post on the mini forum ONLY.
Well frankly there is not a forum that a large amount of pony people go to on a regular basis. Obviously word got out here on this forum and now it will spread among those who do not even go on messages both pony and mini owners remember we are all one registry
And how often has keeping secrets worked in the long run for our registry how has that been for the good any orginization.
How many people who do not go to congress realize that there class prices are so low for a National show? That is not making money why not raise the fees to what Nationals is paying wont fix the budget issue in itself but sure will help
Yes lots of negative and positive comes out of open discussions but really that is the only way to see any change and to get everyone thinking and working at fixing the issue at hand.
And how often has keeping secrets worked in the long run for our registry how has that been for the good any orginization.
How many people who do not go to congress realize that there class prices are so low for a National show? That is not making money why not raise the fees to what Nationals is paying wont fix the budget issue in itself but sure will help
Yes lots of negative and positive comes out of open discussions but really that is the only way to see any change and to get everyone thinking and working at fixing the issue at hand.
Last edited by a moderator:
Cedar Ridge Farm
Well-Known Member
I appreciate the fact that this has been brought to our attention. I have always been proud to be a member of the AMHR and want to see us be a successful business. I have already told my director and others in Area V that I am willing to donate my time to help with 2010 Congress. More and more people are purchasing ponies (myself included) and I hope and pray that we will have a very big turnout this next year. I know for a fact that there are already "ideas" in the works for off-setting costs.
This should not be a mini vs. pony. It should be "what can we do to help and to rectify this situation". The economy is tough. We need to stand firm together so we don't fall.
Sign me up.....
This should not be a mini vs. pony. It should be "what can we do to help and to rectify this situation". The economy is tough. We need to stand firm together so we don't fall.
Sign me up.....
txminipinto
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2002
- Messages
- 2,749
- Reaction score
- 1
This isn't news. Hasn't been for a very long time. And I agree with Jennifer (holy cow
!). The minis may be supporting the ponies RIGHT NOW but if it wasn't the ponies, the minis wouldn't have a registry. Regardless, I do my part. I condition and show ASPC ponies all year long in TX (which has some of the largest pony classes..). And for the past 4 years, I've loaded up my trailer with a full load of ponies and hauled the 18 hours to Congress. I can assure you there are other pony owners who don't. I'm hopeing in 2010 they change their minds and give Congress a shot.
Regardless, OUR assocition (just one, not two) needs to look at the financials and makes some changes. I have no idea what those changes should be. But probably charging more would be a good place to start. Of course, that's a catch 22 because some people won't come. And while they are raising the rates for Congress, they need to raise the rates on Nationals....you know, to make it fair. Pinto World charges $200/stall and $80 per class. Plus, show fee and PtHA fees. To haul one horse, costs me over $300. I can assure you PtHA doesn't loose money on the World show. Another suggestion since this SUCH hardship on the association, is to drop the World Show. We put money into the show and DON'T GET ANYTHING BACK. Chew on that for awhile. That makes some pony people just as mad.
Advertising would definately help. But it's not like the pony people don't know it's coming. It's at the end of July/beginning of August every year. Advertising needs to be done to the outside to bring people in to the ponies. And it should be marketed just like a National level show. I've gotten local show premiums fancier than the Congress one.
Regardless, OUR assocition (just one, not two) needs to look at the financials and makes some changes. I have no idea what those changes should be. But probably charging more would be a good place to start. Of course, that's a catch 22 because some people won't come. And while they are raising the rates for Congress, they need to raise the rates on Nationals....you know, to make it fair. Pinto World charges $200/stall and $80 per class. Plus, show fee and PtHA fees. To haul one horse, costs me over $300. I can assure you PtHA doesn't loose money on the World show. Another suggestion since this SUCH hardship on the association, is to drop the World Show. We put money into the show and DON'T GET ANYTHING BACK. Chew on that for awhile. That makes some pony people just as mad.
Advertising would definately help. But it's not like the pony people don't know it's coming. It's at the end of July/beginning of August every year. Advertising needs to be done to the outside to bring people in to the ponies. And it should be marketed just like a National level show. I've gotten local show premiums fancier than the Congress one.
