Cryptoid

[Miniv]

Scott Creek Farm has written an interesting article on this subject and it's available on their website in their "Health Pages".

They've been serious breeders for over 25 years and work closely with a highly respected NW. Vet, plus the OSU Vet School.

Personally, I feel it's important to observe whether or not a newborn colt is born with their testicle descended. This is a very good indication that they will both drop, even if they pull up for awhile.

Two things of my opinion I would like to add......... 1) A good breeder would NEVER use a stallion that did not have both testicles descended, nor would they suggest to someone else to do so.......... 2) A good breeder, if by chance, sold a colt where one or both testicles ended up not dropping within the time frame that the buyer was comfortable with, the breeder would offer the buyer a replacement colt, or a farm credit, at the very least.......

 

[Matt73]

Scott Creek Farm has written an interesting article on this subject and it's available on their website in their "Health Pages".They've been serious breeders for over 25 years and work closely with a highly respected NW. Vet, plus the OSU Vet School.

Personally, I feel it's important to observe whether or not a newborn colt is born with their testicle descended. This is a very good indication that they will both drop, even if they pull up for awhile.

Two things of my opinion I would like to add......... 1) A good breeder would NEVER use a stallion that did not have both testicles descended, nor would they suggest to someone else to do so.......... 2) A good breeder, if by chance, sold a colt where one or both testicles ended up not dropping within the time frame that the buyer was comfortable with, the breeder would offer the buyer a replacement colt, or a farm credit, at the very least.......

In total agreement. Well put!

 

[CNC MINIS]

I appreciate all of the input. I thought maybe I was overreacting after getting the e-mail from the breeder. I will not name the breeder as they are in very high standing with the MINI /SHETLAND world and I know that I would be seriously flamed for naming them. But to be told to breed the colt with only one testicle as long has he has viable sperm is rediculous.

He has an appointment with my vet tomorrow where I will get a written letter for the breeder that it is not acceptable to breed a stallion that is not decended.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

What a shame. It is enough of a disappointment to have a planned breeding horse turn out to be less than you'd hoped but to have someone you obviously respected turn out to be less worthy of that respect than you'd thought is sad too. Hope everything works out for you somehow.

 

[Windhaven]

Well just my opinion. I feel that this trend of late bloomers would become less and less if people would quit using them. I also believe it is just like the dwarf gene, bad bite gene, cow hocked gene, sickle hocked gene, u-necked gene etc. The less you breed horses that have the characteristics the less you will see of it. I understand that some horses are exceptional and they feel that it is worth breeding them but I feel that it is not bettering the breed in the long run.

I also know for a fact that some of your big respected breeders do use horses for breeding with this problem and others. I have witnessed it. I had purchased a colt once that did not drop and I had to keep him until he was 4 yrs old before sending him back. The breeders comment was why didn't I try drugs or breeding him to a mare because that always makes the testicle drop. Well he did take down a gate once to get to a mare and that didn't help. The breeder did emailed me TWO WEEKS after he got him back and said it was there. I saw the horse again about 2 months after I sent him back and I got to palpate him. The second testicles was not real visible and it was VERY small and felt very soft if that is what I was feeling. This breeder did use him to breed mares and sold him as a breeding stallion. This was from a very respected BIG farm.

Unfortunately people are going to do what it takes to win even if it is not for the better of the miniature breed in the future.

Good luck with your colt.

 

[midnight star stables]

Well just my opinion. I feel that this trend of late bloomers would become less and less if people would quit using them. I also believe it is just like the dwarf gene, bad bite gene, cow hocked gene, sickle hocked gene, u-necked gene etc. The less you breed horses that have the characteristics the less you will see of it. I understand that some horses are exceptional and they feel that it is worth breeding them but I feel that it is not bettering the breed in the long run.Good luck with your colt.

I agree with this opinion.

I'm sorry to hear about your boy.

My colt dropped fully this year in May at 11 months old.

 

[stormy]

Just a word of caution, those nuts can float around quite a bit. I had a three year old stallion I knew was fully descended, had counted more than once, was breeding a mare when a friend dropped by, we were both shocked to see NONE there when he bred this mare, the next day they were both back. Don't go on one observation and sometimes a little sedation by the vet will make the other one appear like magic!!

 

[Magic]

Personally, I feel it's important to observe whether or not a newborn colt is born with their testicle descended. This is a very good indication that they will both drop, even if they pull up for awhile.
Two things of my opinion I would like to add......... 1) A good breeder would NEVER use a stallion that did not have both testicles descended, nor would they suggest to someone else to do so.......... 2) A good breeder, if by chance, sold a colt where one or both testicles ended up not dropping within the time frame that the buyer was comfortable with, the breeder would offer the buyer a replacement colt, or a farm credit, at the very least.......

I completely agree!!

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Michelle, as I understand it cryptorchidism is passed on through the mares--it doesn't have to be a direct father to son thing, it could pass down though the daughters of a crypt stallion

Minimor, if this is true it would be hard to erradicate crytorchids as gelding the boys will not stop the mares from passing this gene, especially for those that may buy a mare without ever seeing/knowing the sire (multiple owner situation). ! I guess I need to do some research on this, as I don't want to pass my conjecture on as fact.

What Joane quoted from The Horse (everyone should read that magazine IMHO!) is what I've heard from vets at UCD too that there is NOT irrefutable proof that it is genetic. There are other factors that can be involved and much of the research regarding ponies (including minis) just isn't there yet.

Here are a few other interesting articles -

Causes of Cryptorchisim

[Causes of Cryptorchidism


The retention of testes is a complex, incompletely understood process involving genetic, hormonal and mechanical factors. In dogs, it is believed to be an autosomal sex-linked recessive gene(3).


/i]

 


Scott Creek article

 


My personal feelings though - I wouldn't buy or breed one that didn't have two easily detected (as in I can see them from a distance!) testicles. Also as a breeder, I would not sell a stallion for breeding that did not have two evident. Again a contract really saves alot of misunderstanding later.

 

 

 

[Minimor]

If it is carried through the mares then it would definitely take longer to eliminate it (or at least greatly reduce the incidence). However, if everyone stopped using the late bloomer stallions then at least they wouldn't be producing daughters to keep passing it on. In time the older mares would be gone and the young ones would only be off stallions that weren't 'late'..definitely it would take time, but I'm quite sure it's not going to happen.

The thing about that article in the Horse--and I admit that I haven't read the full article, but I did read the part that was quote in Joanne's post...just because it is "more common in ponies and minis" doesn't mean it is acceptable. I'm not disputing that it is more common in the small equine, but I don't accept that 'more common' means it's acceptable. And sometimes it may not be genetic. After all, I do know people that have used late bloomers and gotten "normal" colts--so was this not in the genes to be passed on, or did those particular colts just luck out & get the normal genes? However, because the genetic possibility is there--it's a "fault" that I won't use.

Judging by how many posts we see on here from people that have gotten a crypt or at least a late bloomer--people that are worried or upset about the fact that their colt/stallion has this 'problem' tells me that it is a problem. Then of course there are the people that want to geld, and have to pay for the more invasive surgery to geld those colts that aren't dropped yet--that is a problem for them too. As I see it there are just too many "problems" associated with this condition for it to be pooh-poohed away as being "no problem"

It's considered a fault in mature stallions by AMHR rules; I've had a judge check my yearling colt in the Grand Championship class...making me very glad that my boy had both his little guys down & visible. He might not have got the Grand otherwise...

 

[tifflunn]

My 2 year old just dropped his 2nd one in late June- He had both down when he foaled.

 

[Donna]

Some colts don't drop until they are 3 but have your vet check him, if he feels that he will not drop then have him give you a written statement and then return him for either a full refund, or a colt of similar value from the breeder.

I bought a colt as a weanling and to discovered he was lacking. I contacted the breeder and was to informed to give him time. I had the breeder put it in writing that if the colt had not dropped by the age of three , she would replace him for a horse of equal value. I was offered very little in replacement and none that I felt was at all equal value. I to bought this horse as my future herd sire based on his pedigree and the people selling him. MISTAKE

We had him ultrasounded, we gave hormone injections (at the breeders recommendation) and everything short of an implant, lol. He is going on four years now and we have just settled with the breeder for much less than we should have. I have 10g's invested and settled for just enough to have him gelded. Don't sit on him, take him back for a full refund or exchange and if they are not willing, Get a Lawyer.

 

[Jill]

Don't sit on him, take him back for a full refund or exchange and if they are not willing, Get a Lawyer.

The thing is, if there wasn't a contract that specified both testicles would be descended by X age, I don't think a lawyer would be able to do anything beyond generate some expenses. It's buyer beware, unfortunately, and if you don't have written guarantees, I think the horse is pretty much yours "as is".

On the bright side, if there is one, I think there are a number of people who have probably learned from this thread to be certain testicles are descended on a horse they hope to use as a stallion.

 

[Donna]

Like I said, check with a Lawyer. Every state has its own laws to govern. In the state of Va. Jill, where you are located along with myself. I bought a stallion with the full intention of using him as my sole herd sire. With that said and it was understood when I bought him that was the full intention. Under Va. Law, if both parties have agreed to the sale, written in contract or not, the verbal binding is there. My attorney said that he could not fullfill " Intention" agreement therefore rendering the sale of a "Breeding Stallion" void. I had solid legal ground to go ahead with a lawsuit had it been warranted. I am sure all states are different, but my point is, you do not necessarily need it in writing. Oh, my attorney fees were well worth every penny! Just for your info Jill, Keep this in mind

 

[Jill]

I think a good thing to keep in mind is to have what is needed in terms of any guarantee in writing. You just said you settled for the cost of gelding him pretty much -- so getting a lawyer unfortunately didn't make you nearly whole (right?). I can see a lot of problems. Look at what some people are willing to breed... so I can see a horse with retained testicles but still fertile as being deemed "OK" by some (of course, not by either you or myself... but there are some who would use such a horse). If important things are in writing, it leaves less to be interpreted as to what is and is not acceptable.

Like I said, check with a Lawyer. Every state has its own laws to govern. In the state of Va. Jill, where you are located along with myself. I bought a stallion with the full intention of using him as my sole herd sire. With that said and it was understood when I bought him that was the full intention. Under Va. Law, if both parties have agreed to the sale, written in contract or not, the verbal binding is there. My attorney said that he could not fullfill " Intention" agreement therefore rendering the sale of a "Breeding Stallion" void. I had solid legal ground to go ahead with a lawsuit had it been warranted. I am sure all states are different, but my point is, you do not necessarily need it in writing. Oh, my attorney fees were well worth every penny! Just for your info Jill, Keep this in mind

We had him ultrasounded, we gave hormone injections (at the breeders recommendation) and everything short of an implant, lol. He is going on four years now and we have just settled with the breeder for much less than we should have. I have 10g's invested and settled for just enough to have him gelded. Don't sit on him, take him back for a full refund or exchange and if they are not willing, Get a Lawyer.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

As far as I can see, if you need a written agreement you will be dealing with someone who is not going to live up to that agreement.

The only thing that is worth anything at all is someone who is honest and willing to live up to their mistakes or to accept that a problem is not the responsibility of someone else.

A horse whose testicles do not arrive until it is three is a horse that will pass on this problem to it's foals.

I would not breed from a horse like that.

If you had spoken to the person that you were buying the colt from, and said all this to them, then they should take the colt back and refund all your money.

If this was not understood then it is your loss...you cannot change the details after the deal has been done.

Now, OK, Harsh Language Warning!!!!!

If you do not understand all the problems inherent with buying a potential stallion then you should not be attempting to buy a potential stallion

 

[Jill]

As far as I can see, if you need a written agreement you will be dealing with someone who is not going to live up to that agreement.

I've only ever dealt with honest people when it comes to buying (and selling) horses. This makes me lucky, for sure.

However, a written agreement doesn't mean you think anyone's going to be dishonest. It lays everything out so you both know without questioning who is responsible for what. A written agreement can never hurt and let's face it -- most people at some time or another buy a horse from someone who is, for all intents and purposes, a stranger to them at the time of the transaction. At the time you've exchanged $$$$ for horse, you often don't KNOW if a person is honest or not.

I feel my hunches in horses and business are usually right on, but you often don't know for sure and a contract avoids the potential for confusion.

It's hard for me to think of a horse purchase situation where a written contract would be a bad idea.

Now, OK, Harsh Language Warning!!!!!If you do not understand all the problems inherent with buying a potential stallion then you should not be attempting to buy a potential stallion

Harsh or not, I do agree. I think some people have learned some information just from reading through this thread.

 

[Donna]

Let me clarrify Jill, when I said I settled, I settled for what I asked for and nothing else. I only wanted to be fair from the start, not greedy or vandictive. My attorney seeked exactly what I had asked for all along. Since it was obvious that the seller and I were not going to work it out, it was the only way I could see to rectify my situation and I am happy with the end result. So with that being said I hope that my initial response to this thread , point in fact, you can seek a means to an end without a contract on paper. Allot of attorneys will hear out your dilema and freely give you advise, should it be desided that you do indeed have grounds to seek settlement, then that again would be a personal choice. Our choice to hire an attorney to help us was the best choice for us in our situation and I can now lay this to rest. I hope others can do the same. "Lay their troubles to rest". Oh and about the contract, I have had contracts in the past over other situations that my attorney has overlooked and basicly they were not worth the paper they were written on, so yes, Buyer Be Ware!

 

[Jill]

I can understand how you feel, Donna, and I'm sorry the seller wasn't agreeable from the start. Just makes me wish all the more there was some kind of a list or feedback forum (like on eBay) where you can read about people to and not to deal with -- both from a purchase and a sales perspective. There are some real jerks out there to be sure.

 

[Donna]

thats exactly right Jill, I have learned that you need to ask questions, do some research for sure. It is very sad that sometimes it comes down to this. Wanting to be a apart of the Miniature Horse World, owning, showing, buying and selling should always be a pleasant experience, unfortunatley life itself is not always pleasant. We sometimes just do what we gotta do and go on. My advise from my own experience is, DO NOT BUY if the little one is retaining no matter WHAT the breeder or seller tells you! There more than likely is another very nice colt out there with both "marbles" that you may even find cheaper, lol.