Cryptoid

[Jill]

DO NOT BUY if the little one is retaining no matter WHAT the breeder or seller tells you!

Again, I agree

 

[bingo]

But I cannot believe the breeder (a very reputable breeder) would say breed him and to imply to keep breeding him even if he never drops as long as he is fertile, just blows me away.

I am not at all discussing whoever the breeder is you are dealing with now but I do think that is exactly why minis have poor stifles, poor hind ends, dwarves, and all types of other issues and that they are more rampant then in other breeds. Simply put if it can produce then breed it seems to be the mini motto for many.

I am speaking in general terms but do not know that I have ever seen a large group of people so willing to defend faults and come up with reasons why it is ok to breed them. Even if you find a couple of studies that say it MIGHT not be genetic- with all the stallions available in this breed and there are many why even think of using a horse with something that COULD BE genetic?

 

[user 488]

I do think that is exactly why minis have poor stifles, poor hind ends, dwarves, and all types of other issues and that they are more rampant then in other breeds. Simply put if it can produce then breed it seems to be the mini motto for many.

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately a major part of the problem is the fact that a great majority of people wouldn't know poor stifles or poor hind ends if it was laid out in front of them. Everyone is so ready to breed without proper knowledge of good basic conformation. And that doesn't even touch the quality issue.

am speaking in general terms but do not know that I have ever seen a large group of people so willing to defend faults and come up with reasons why it is ok to breed them.

Again, you have said it all for me. I don't know why a vast majority of mini people are so stubborn. You do see this in other breeds but not like you see it in Mini's. It's almost like they are defending a bad child. And yes, this might sound harsh too, but this is so ignorant and the reason all these faults do run rampant in the breed.

I have seen some horses that have won on the National level have some glaring stifle problems (as well as others) so I guess those people think they have got something wonderful without thinking that maybe sometimes judges just have to pick the best of the worst. I don't know the answer. But until the entire general mentality of "breed everything with sexual apparatus" changes these problems will continue to run rampant. But the bottom line is nobody seems to realize that these conversation could possibly be related to them.

And yes, I always think if even one person learns something from a thread then it's worth it harsh or not. Sometimes it just takes a good dose of reality to get a point across.

 

[Hosscrazy]

Well said, Carol - very well said...

Liz R.

 

[CNC MINIS]

I took this colt (2 year old) to the vet and yes he only has one teste down, the other was palpable but was only one third the size of the other. I will NOT breed this colt. I am not a big breeder by anymeans, I spent a lot of time reserching and doing my best to find the best and I thought I was dealing with someone who had good standings in the industry and good horses, but from what he e-mailed me I am sure that this colt is not the only crypt. that has came off of their place, I have called 2 times and was told the same thing from his wife, they have had this before and they always drop. To be told to breed him that might make him drop and to use him even if he never drops as long as he has viable sperm is a load of c@#%, I don't know if he thought he was taking to a toatal green horn or what but it makes you think what else is going on at this farm. They knew and in the contract it was stated that this colt was being purchased for a stallion, but they are still being very difficult about the deal. Like my vet said people need to geld these horses and get them out of the breeding pool yes he will breed mares and get them in foal but what will the resulting foals be. I won't be one of those people even taking a huge loss I will have him gelded. I know that if the farm takes him back he will be sold agian as a breeding stallion.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

I'm going to throw this out there for arguments sake -

Buyer A buys a weanling colt with the intent to use as a breeding stallion. Colt is 2 - 2 1/2 and has only dropped one testicle. Buyer has been successfully showing (he does well and as AMHA does not require both down until he's three and AMHR has no requirement at all), this stallion does well in the show ring. The buyer's plan is to breed him when he's three. So here she is with her 2 1/2 year old succesful show stalion - should she return him? Geld him? Wait until he's a full three?

Personally I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater - I would NOT breed a stallion with only one down, but if it dropped - it dropped! I'm not willing to say ALL minis mature at the same schedule!

We had a stallion here (not mine - he was boarding here briefly) that the orginial breeder thought was a crypt (and sold him that way - a long story about why the buyer bought him . . . bleah). Anyway he dropped his second one just shy of his 3rd birthday. When he got here - I was gee he's awfully feminine for a stallion. No interest in mares, very immature (the first photo I saw of him I thought he was a long yearling and he was well past two), etc. I put him in a pen with mares on three sides and within about 1 1/2 months his attitude and testosterone level (appearance not tested) seemed to kick in. He was acting very I'm a guy - what I'm use to with my stallions - running the fence, yelling at the mares, exercising his equipment, etc. He has been a very successful stud from what I've heard.

So according to some on here he should have been gelded as he dropped past the imaginary 'too late to keep them line'. Too me he was a late bloomer!

I have mares here that for the same reason do NOT get bred til they are five or so - their maturity level isn't there. And yes I do test breed stallions at two - BUT they have to have everything in place and be sufficiently ready to undertake the task. Otherwise they wait too.

Honestly I think too many people rush into breeding horses (both sexes) way to early. Just because they can doesn't mean they need to!

I agree 100% with what Carol and Bingo said as far as mini breeders as a whole - I see it at the shows, on websites, and on discussion boards. Defending the right to breed inferior animals (I mean conformation!), etc. Misleading the unsuspecting or overly trusting - it often isn't pretty what happens to newbies to this breed.

Personally, I know I got into breeding half-a@@ backwards, and I've had a huge learning curve - sometimes a painful one - but I do try to educate myself daily, and try to keep improving my herd. Those that have been here and bought from me - know I'm more than hypercritical of my own horses as I feel ALL breeders should be! (BTW - please don't judge by photos I make all horses extremely ugly with a camera!)

So, I do bow to those with considerable more horse knowledge than I have when it comes to overall conformation, etc - BUT when it comes to many of the arugments I read here (not you two Carol and Bingo) - it's opinion unsupported by fact! And I don't mean this thread - I mean in general! Too many people give the 'I think' opinion with no actual knowledge or research to support their thoughts. I'm not from Missouri, but I'm a bit of the 'show me' type.

Sorry off the soapbox and sorry for hijacking the thread!

 

[disneyhorse]

Michelle... I don't think anyone is arguing that a stallion CAN'T drop later on in life... it's that they SHOULDN'T IDEALLY drop later on in life. By waiting until they are two or three or five, you are risking having a colt that doesn't drop them at all, and risking having colts bred genetically in the future that will drop later on.

MOST horses are dropped at birth. My shetland colt is only a yearling, and they are BIG and THERE. No stress that he won't have them down, no stress if I geld him that it will cost more for invasive surgery, no stress that his offspring (should there ever be any) might also be "late bloomers." Isn't it better to just have testicles there from the get-go, rather than read/hear about colt after colt not dropped yet?

If the testicles are there, then while you show that stallion-prospect you don't have a lot invested in a horse with one or no testicles. And even a smaller or deformed testicle isn't always the greatest, you have reduced sperm production.

Andrea

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Andrea, you're 100% right and I guess I never have thought of this from the angle of those that like to geld early - what a hassle if you have to do a wait and see or a more invasive and costly procedure. I don't geld early since minis are a height registry (unfortunately) I'm concerned with the studies that indicate gelding to early will allow them to grow taller than normal - desirably in a large horse but generally not so in a mini!

Personally, I wouldn't invest any time in showing a colt that didn't have both testicles down as that would be like showing one with a bad bite or crooked legs, etc.

My point was should a stallion that drops late (after two) just automatically be gelded? I mean it may be undesirable and most definitely shouldn't be used for breeding until both are there, but should we just draw that cut off line so firmly? You're points are excellent though.

Bottomline for me - the breeder should be responsible as they have an unhappy buyer. Contract or not be ethical and take responsibility for what they breed, that would make buying/selling minis alot less 'buyer beware'.

 

[shelia]

I have a question. What if they are there at birth and sometime within the first year one or both disappear. Are they at risk of being a crytoid? Are they not desirable?

 

[Jill]

Sheila --

I don't think anyone here really knows. Everyone's just stating opinions based on assumptions.

Personally, if they were down at birth, "disappeared" for a short time and came back down before the 2nd year, I wouldn't have concerns personally (even though my stallions have been down and stayed down).

Another thing, too, is if you are not used to feeling for them, they can hold them up very snug. When I first started having colts gelded, I had to keep checking and it's only like a ghost of a feel. At first, I wasn't really sure I had felt anything. I think sometimes when an owner (hopefully not a vet) feels they're not both down -- they really may be.

When both Bacardi and Blue were gelded, they had each been holding one up snug but it was descended and were gelded easily the "regular way". But I do think there are a lot of owners out there who would have said they only had one descended, though that was not the case.

Jill

 

[Carolyn R]

Sheila, If a colt truely has both testicals present at birth, and they "vanish" To my knowledge they are just tucked away. I don't believe that they have actually gone way up above the inguinal (I know I spelled that wrong) ring. It just isn't likely. I believe that people generally consider an animal a true crypt when one or both of the testicals can not be palpated and has not passed through the inguinal ring and is retained in the cavity.

 

[crponies]

The colt that started this whole thread is not a true crypt obviously since both of his testicles can be palpated. If a colt can have his testicles felt even if they are not dropped down visually until 2 or 3, what is the issue with breeding him? I honestly do not get what the problem is. If they can be felt, they can be gelded normally, right? So, even if it is genetic, his sons would not run into an issue with gelding. When do the big horse breeds have to have both down for showing?

 

[Jill]

I have a 2 year old colt that has one testicle down and the other one is no where to be seen or felt, I contacted the breeder ...

The colt that started this whole thread is not a true crypt obviously since both of his testicles can be palpated.

Unless something changed since the initial post above (which is possible, I've not read every post in the thread), it sounds like the MIA one cannot be palpated and is retained -- making the horse cryptorchid.

 

[crponies]

I took this colt (2 year old) to the vet and yes he only has one teste down, the other was palpable but was only one third the size of the other.

This is the post I was coming from, Jill.

 

[Jill]

Ah-ha! Thanks, Jayne. I am with you -- if you can feel them both, no, he's not cryptorchid at all. I would imagine soon they'll be the same size, too. Not sure if a lot of others also missed what you just pointed out but sounds to me like this is a horse who isn't crypt and is only 2yo. I personally would not have an issue using him.

 

[Sue_C.]

Unless something changed since the initial post above (which is possible, I've not read every post in the thread), it sounds like the MIA one cannot be palpated and is retained -- making the horse cryptorchid.

Please read the FIRST post to this thread...

I have a 2 year old colt that has one testicle down and the other one is no where to be seen or felt,

THIS was the originators first post on this colt...it certainly IS a crypt, as there is no second testicle, even with palipitation by the Vet.

 

[crponies]

Sue, when she first posted, the vet check had not been done. She wrote an update and the vet did feel the other testicle.

 

[Sue_C.]

OOPS! I thought that she had the vet check it out already..the first time. Sorry...eating my words. DOH!

Though still, I would not breed with him as long as one tesicle is smaller than the other, as that too, to me...is a defect. Should both be there, fully in their glory, at three, then perhaps it would be okay top breed with him, tho' I would still wnt to see them down and full, as a yearling, in any stallion I choose to use for breeding. There arte so MANY wonderful colts out there to choose from...why take even the smallest chance on passing defects on to other generations?

 

[CNC MINIS]

According to my vet Yes he is a cryptorchid, And should not be bred. Yes his teste is palpable but it still in the inguinal ring and according to my Vet it MAY drop. So I don't know what to say am I wrong to agree with my vet, by the way a very reputable reproduction vet.

 

[Gini]

I had my stallion gelded even after the vet could feel the hidden one in the inguinal ring. The vet told me that there is usually a reason for this happening

and wouldn't want to chance leaving him a stallion. He was gelded and the difference of the two testicals were amazing. The one in the ring was a lot smaller but just big enough to get caught. I feel it was a good call to geld my boy!