Cryptorchid

rabbitsfizz · Oct 7, 2005

I fully agree that the problem itself should be handled privately.

I stand by what I have said, as reputable breeder of 27 years standing in Miniatures and forty in Arabs I would NEVER sell, as stallion potential, a fully undescended colt and I would NEVER sell as breeding potential an animal with an off bite, UNLESS there were mitigating circumstances- although I cannot at the moment think what would cause me to mitigate!! I have only ever had one filly born with an off bite and it was actually born with it and it never came completely right, consequently she was not sold for, nor used for, breeding. I do not personally care how good the colt is (any colt , not speaking of this one or any one specifically, here) I do not care how good it's bloodlines are. If it has and inheritable fault, and I do consider late descending testicles an inheritable fault, I will not breed from it. Taking this argument to it's logical end we would be saying, Yes, I know he throws off bites, I know he occasionally throws Monorchids (Mon= ONE Crypt = TWO, let's start getting that, at least, right, shall we??) I know he throws some dwarfs and I know a lot of his stock goes over height BUT he has impeccable bloodlines and is National Almighty Supreme Champion of the World- so, it's OK because he's good. Jones down the road has a nice colt who ONCE throws a dwarf and we ALL jump on th wagon shouting he should NEVER be bred again ??? I do not think so. If an animal, any animal , has a fault, it has a fault. It's bloodlines and how good it is are irrelevant.

Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too · Oct 7, 2005

Fizz for future reference cryptorchidism does not mean two testis absent or retained. It means when one or both are retained. The term monorchid just clarifies the degree of the cryptorchidism.

How many years again did you say have you been at this?

Lauralee · Oct 7, 2005

Larry and Maryann Cerullo are two of the most upstanding breeders in our industry. They have a strong reputation for honesty and fairness. I would not hesitate to buy a horse from them or to refer a friend to their farm to buy a horse. Their policy/contract on testicles is NOT significantly DIFFERENT than that of most well known breeding farms in our country.

There are responsible, reputable breeders on both sides of the testicle argument; therefore, as in many subjects, there is no one right answer. Danna could have easily arranged a prepurchase vet exam and asked these questions of her vet before her purchases. NOBODY can guarantee bites on a youngster. They can go off at any point due to dental neglect or nutritional imbalance or growth spurts.

These matters should have been handled privately by Danna. It is not polite to air the registered names and pedigrees of horses in this way, especially when the breeders have been communicating with her from the start.

miniwhinny · Oct 7, 2005

Lauralee,

This is going to be my last post on the subject but I have to say that you aren't in a position to make comments like those when you don't know all the facts.

I just wrote a long thread on some of the things that have happened but deleted it all and am trying to rise above getting into a spitting contest, but just because someone is a big breeder and everyone knows them doesn't mean that things are always perfect in sales and relationships. It's easy for me to come on listing things that have gone on but that's just going to make me look and feel childish and I won't go there. If you have had good experiences with these breeders I am thrilled. I know for a fact that apart from his testicles Ozy is THE most perfect horse I've seen yet...absolutly perfectly aligned teeth, perfect legs, awesome disposition, gorgeous movement an all around unreal colt (he's a line back dun with huge jack stripes without being a dun

)and he came from their breeding program. It doesn't change the fact that I have a mare I want to breed next year who has a bad bite and a colt with only one jewel.

If you re-read my first posts I was in total support of what I was being told. It is only after I was innundated with private PM's telling me to geld this horse that I started to get worried and one total change of information from the breeders from "he's perfectly normal to he's our first one like this".

I've contacted some of the top vets in my area and all are in the same mind about Ozy being a crypt (they don't distinguish between crypt and mono) and Twoie's teeth are off. I'm looking into having the hormone shot done and have a call into my vets concerning this.

Maybe this will be a test case we can all look back on in years when I'm producing perfect babies from these two with great bites and early droppers or little "mono-one-o's (as my vet tech now calls Ozymandias) with bad bites.

Time will tell. Until then I'm bowing out of this thread.

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis · Oct 7, 2005

Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too said:
Fizz for future reference cryptorchidism does not mean two testis absent or retained. It means when one or both are retained. The term monorchid just clarifies the degree of the cryptorchidism.
How many years again did you say have you been at this?

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INteresting triggy as that is EXACTLY what my vet said when we discussed this issue last nite

I was asking about retained testicles and what he could find out online on his vet boards since he really only deals with my farm as his only mini "breeding farm"

and his definition as well as many other vets he spoke with agreed with exactly what you used as a definition since I did ask him that quesiton as well

He has said that alot seem to agree it is a small equine thing not uncommon in ponies of all breeds (and yes that includes our minis) to mature a bit later then large horses and that even in large horses not all are fully dropped by 1 year.

he said the key is being beyond the ring and being able to feel them there as opposed to being up in the abdomen and that for the record many large horse breeders use this as there "guide" if a horse has 2 testicles or not.

Umm for the record there are also many vets and studies to show (although you can find a study to show you anything you want it to) that this isnt always a GENETIC problem not saying it is or isnt just something else to think about and discuss with your own vets.

YOu will find many many different ideas on this and people passionate about them like I said before no different then some sure a color is this when others are just as sure it isnt, or a feed program or many other things

I will say this Larry and MA are VERY honest and breeders that come with life long follow up should you so choose to use it