different opinions

[bevann]

Another member asked for a critique of her mare and the postings were so very different it got me thinking about a very pertinent topic since show season is fast approaching and in some areas of the country already in full swing.Many years ago when showing dogs I learned a very important lesson.When you enter any animal in a competition you are asking for the JUDGE'S OPINION OF YOUR ANIMAL on that particular day in that class against the others entered in the same class.(Next week or the next day is totally another story and different circumstances and in may cases different horses. You may not agree with the placing, but the judge has every right to his/her opinion of your animal.As much as we would like to think otherwise,sometimes politics is involved.( If we can't deal with that then maybe we shouldn't compete)We can't always see from the sidelines what the judge sees in the ring.If we don't like the way a particular judge places animals don't show under them in the future.Many trainers and exhibitors keep a log of horses entered under particular judges and how placings went.If the judge gives all exhibitors a thorough examination that is all the exhibitor is entitled to.Any riboons are a bonus.Personally,I hated being in the ring.I was much happier being the dirty groom standing outside the ring.Good luck to all who compete this year.Most of all HAVE FUN and be gracious even if the ribbon is not the color you had wanted.

 

[kaykay]

I so agree! To me it was not at all odd that different people perceived the pictures differently. You can see the exact same thing at any horse show. While usually judges are pretty close in what they pick (say a 3 judge show) I have been to others where you will see 2 judges place a horse 1st and one judge place it 4th. That is just showing horses!

Another thing I hear a lot is "but I got grand champion last weekend!" Like you said different judges, different horses, different day many times equals a different placing.

Judges are human and like all of us some have certain things they like that will vary judge to judge. My big thing has always been legs. I am very much a leg woman.

I have found over the years of showing ASPC/AMHR that the judging overall is very fair. For sure I have a few favorite judges that I like to show under, but I have rarely seen the politics thing over the years. Maybe a couple judges over the many I have shown under over the years.

I keep hoping to get my judges card but things keep getting in the way.

 

[Riverrose28]

I totally agree with Bev, one week the judge will come up to you and tell you how great your horse is and place you first, while next month the next judge will give you the gate, it happens, I've been showing since 1986 and I know you pay for the judges opinion. I too am a leg person, I think all halter horses should have nice straight legs. It does gall me though sometimes when I am watching a class and the judge places a horse in first that toes out but is being shown by a judge or trainer. To me that is politics, another thing that gets to me, is a trainer hands off their prfessionally trained horse to an ametuer and to a youth and the judges since they have already seen this horse don't give the others a fair shake, to me that is political. Just to add, I'm watching not competeing.

 

[wingnut]

I'm only showing at my club shows again this year. These are very small and have a range of quality when it comes to the horses involved.

Last year, my goal was to make it to 3 shows. To drive there and back successfully (first time trailering). To get in the ring and attempt to show. To introduce myself to more of the other club members.

I met everyone of those goals. Did my 2 horses do well? Sort of. I got ribbons every time but in the yearling halter class that both were in (my daughter showed the other horse) we were two of the three entries. The other yearling filly got blue every time. Did I think she was a better horse? Maybe. What really mattered was that the young lady showing her had experience and *definitely* showed her horse better. It's pretty hard to place over another horse when your horse refuses to walk!

So this year, my goal is to make all 5 shows. I'm only showing one girl. My daughter, bless her heart, is still willing to come along to help but she's really not interested in actually going into the ring. I don't know if I'll have different competition this year or not in the 2 yr old mare class, but I hope to have improved enough to bring home at least one earned blue.

This is all about enjoying my time with my horses, enjoying time with other miniature folks and learning a thing or two along the way.

 

[ruffian]

I so agree! Have fun and respect the judge for their opinion THAT DAY - whether you agree or not

.

I saw a true gentleman showing a pony in a class last year - he was the only entry. He explained that he would "touch the ribbons for respect" and donate them back to the show. He had to repeat it several times for the ribbon girl to "get it". I thought that was very classy, and sure showed respect for the judges AND the effort it takes to put on a show.

The old saying is true - sometimes you're the windshield, and sometimes you're the bug!

 

[Jean_B]

Yup - if only one opinion was the "right" one...

1) We would not have Democrats vs. Republicans vs. Green Party vs. Tea Party vs. Libertarian Party...

2) Everyone would drink only one flavor of soda pop

3) There would be only one car company

Etc etc etc etc

And the world would be a very dull place....and it wouldn't be worth taking your horse out to another the next week because you would know what the results would be before you got there.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Great thread and great reminder!

I so agree! Have fun and respect the judge for their opinion THAT DAY - whether you agree or not

.

I saw a true gentleman showing a pony in a class last year - he was the only entry. He explained that he would "touch the ribbons for respect" and donate them back to the show. He had to repeat it several times for the ribbon girl to "get it". I thought that was very classy, and sure showed respect for the judges AND the effort it takes to put on a show.

The old saying is true - sometimes you're the windshield, and sometimes you're the bug!

Thanks for sharing this story. I too donate my ribbons back, unless it's a special one like a horses first grand, etc., but I never thought to actually accept the ribbon and then hand it right back and I realize from your story my not taking the ribbon probably has seemed disrespectful of the judges and the process. That certainly is never my intent, I just try to save the clubs money. I'm glad you pointed this out.

 

[minimomNC]

I have to say I am very blessed when it comes to showing horses. I don't have to do it, I have a wonderful and capable daughter who does all of our fitting, training and showing. She is an amateur and at our first show this year (AMHR), in very tough competition, She took an overall grand with her Sr Over Mare. We were so excited because it was over exceptional trainers. It might never happen again, but that one judge liked our mare best that day.

Several years ago we had a wonderful 28 & under filly showing with a young and upcoming trainer. He got Open Supremes with her at his first show but the next year as a two year old, at one show she won an open, amateur and youth supremes under one judge. We were so astonished but so happy. This judge was also judging our next show, so we knew he liked our filly. Well guess who's bubble was busted. Yep, mine. He didn't even give her two looks. So you just never know what a judge will do on any given day so when you win, enjoy it. When you don't, there is always another show.

Oh also wanted to add, while we do take the ribbons in the ring, we donate all of them back after the show.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

It's so true about different opinions AND many people look at different parts of the same animal. I have friends that favor heads, butts, legs, neck sets and something off is a deal breaker in the preferred area.

Personally I like overall conformation, dead straight legs and a good neck set with head being my last concern (unless it's overly ugly!). My theory is easier to correct a head than bad legs, wonky anything, etc.

As for judges and politics. I don't/haven't shown in a few years, but do attend and watch occasional. There is politics involved, not always but it's definitely an underlying current at some shows. I've heard trainer/judges flat say they better do well under so and so as they'll be judging in their area in a few months, that's flat political. To me that's wrong.

Overall though, even when we showed I rarely was upset about our placings, as I saw the trainers and the AOTE people who worked their tails off prepping their horses and they presented better than my novice efforts and deserved to place higher. The ammy's getting handed a horse at the gate by their trainer, well that's another topic entirely.

 

[kaykay]

It does gall me though sometimes when I am watching a class and the judge places a horse in first that toes out but is being shown by a judge or trainer.

I will say this. Sometimes it looks like politics when it isnt. For example I was helping a new person learn the ropes so we went to the arena to watch classes so she could get a feel for what the judges were looking for. I told her to place the class. Well one class the winner was a yearling mare that was somewhat cowhocked. My newbie friend was stunned and said "see politics!" What she didnt understand is that every horse has faults. Mild cowhocks are considered a mild fault by most judges. So although this filly had mild cowhocks, everything else on her was just stunning. The second place horse did not have cowhocks, but had a shortish neck and big plain head.

So its all relative to what is in the ring. I suspect in a larger class with better competition, that cowhocked filly would probably place 3rd or 4th. But that day they deemed her the best.

 

[Psultan]

I believe that judging is 99% fair at all shows. Now do you get that odd ball in the group judging ....yes and that wont stop. Now a way to stop that would be for clubs not to hire that odd ball and we can end that problem. I feel I do not pay for their opinion I pay for their expertise and in accordance to the STANDARDS of the BREED with those horses in THAT ring at that TIME only. When I was looking to show Ponie's and Mini's and talking with people all I heard was, POLITICS POLITICS and more PLOITICS here over all other breeds and you could not win unless you were with a name trainer. Now that said I believe any one can win at any show if and only if you do all the hard work any one else that wins have to do. Start with Quality, Train, and turn that pony out like no other. You can NOT win on staight legs alone, here is what I belive that will win consistantly..... You need great legs, Long neck, Smooth body and Croup, Nice head and nice moving pony. I have never talked with any one thats LEGS were important and I believe that is the big one. I thought about that and maybe coming from the performance end of it with my large horses where if you do not have great legs you have NO horse.

As far as amateur's I do not have a problem the trainer handing off their horse to that Amateur for their class or coaching from the rail. The only problem might be is if that Amateur can NOT show that horse to it's ability and the placing should reflect that.

I/we judge every one of MY classes and take it apart as we do the ones we watch as well.

 

[Bess Kelly]

As far as amateur's I do not have a problem the trainer handing off their horse to that Amateur for their class or coaching from the rail. The only problem might be is if that Amateur can NOT show that horse to it's ability and the placing should reflect that.

I sure can vouch for this one

They can hand you a lead on a horse that JUST won a similar class and that horse may not respond to you at all. Try dead last fir your efforts.......

While it possibly isn't this way for all amateurs, and can be unfair to others in class if not, most often the advantage is minimal.

As to judges and horses, all the previous posted comments, I can surely agree! Hey, consider that horses have some "off" days also! Just have fun and do your best. THAT is what it's about anyway.

 

[Mominis]

I don't feel there is as much politics in the ring as most people say there are...and that goes for the AMHR ring as well as several large breeds who are all notorious for being political. To a small degree, yes. However, what I think many people overlook is a person's ability to show the horse to it's best advantage. Does XYZ trainer and ABC trainer win pretty much everything the enter? Maybe they have taken the time to get familiar with their horses' faults and have creatively shown the horse to minimize the faults and maximize the assets. That's what they get paid to do.

 

[Equuisize]

This is an super topic/reminder and should be redone every show season.

Pay your money, take your chances. It will vary show by show depending on the judge(s)

and who you are competing with that day, what mood you are in and what mood your horse is in. Horses like people have days where everything is 'just right' with them. The sun, moon and stars all align, with the fitting to prepare them, to make them be at the top of their game.

You're rested/feel good, they are rested/feeling good and it all comes together in a glorious exibition.

Politics is a fact of life but probably exists less than people would like to think on those days they/their horse doesn't show their best.

Judges, want to be fair, exercise their expertise well so that they are viewed as desirable

judges and asked back, to do their job, for you, another show.

Just my experience and opinion.

 

[Riverrose28]

I will say this. Sometimes it looks like politics when it isnt. For example I was helping a new person learn the ropes so we went to the arena to watch classes so she could get a feel for what the judges were looking for. I told her to place the class. Well one class the winner was a yearling mare that was somewhat cowhocked. My newbie friend was stunned and said "see politics!" What she didnt understand is that every horse has faults. Mild cowhocks are considered a mild fault by most judges. So although this filly had mild cowhocks, everything else on her was just stunning. The second place horse did not have cowhocks, but had a shortish neck and big plain head.

So its all relative to what is in the ring. I suspect in a larger class with better competition, that cowhocked filly would probably place 3rd or 4th. But that day they deemed her the best.

In my opinion this is exactly what Bev is trying to convey! I too wouldn't mark down a horse for being slightly cowhocked, but someone else may. But! in MY OPINION a horse that toes out in front should not be in a conformation halter class, shown by a trainer or not. It's a matter of opinion. If they are shown in a halter class then they would place dead last if I were judging, everyone is not born a judge or a trainer, we are all people with different likes and dislikes. I could go on, but will end it here. I will add I love everyone on this site, I'm an old lady and don't want to argue I want everyone of you to be my friend. Pleas be kind to me!

 

[kaykay]

You can NOT win on staight legs alone, here is what I belive that will win consistantly..... You need great legs, Long neck, Smooth body and Croup, Nice head and nice moving pony. I have never talked with any one thats LEGS were important and I believe that is the big one.

Kris I wasnt saying a horse would win on legs alone but for some like me, I will put more emphasis on correct legs than I will a pretty head. I know some judges that will go for a pretty head over correct legs any day of the week. I know another judge that loves the stockier type miniatures. (yes there are still some out there) For sure the total picture is important but there are no perfect horses. Every horse has a fault.

But! in MY OPINION a horse that toes out in front should not be in a conformation halter class, shown by a trainer or not.

Gosh I would never get mad over a post

Feel free to disagree!

I will say anyone who sends their money into a show can show whatever they want. Sickle hocked, short necked, ewe necked, I have seen it all in the ring.

 

[Minimor]

I have to question whether politics are at play when I see a lame horse get pinned first in a halter class....a horse that is not just a little tender footed, but head bobbing lame on one leg. And I have seen this happen a time or two, and the horse wasn't the only decent looking horse in the ring in the instances I've seen, the other entries were quality animals. Politics? Or just a couple of incredibly stupid judges? IMO a lame horse should NEVER be pinned first.

I have here a magazine with an article written by a leading judge of a certain breed--he wrote about a popular stallion that he personally thought was the best horse ever, and one of the things he wrote about was a show he judged where that particular horse was up against another stallion in a performance class. He admits that the horse he liked didn't work his best that day, while the other stallion gave the performance of his life. The other horse was better on that day in that class--but this judge knew that the stallion he favored would normally have given a better performance. Because he knew the stallion was capable of doing better...he pinned that stallion first, even though that stallion was not the best one in the ring that particular day. I suggest that is politics at its worst.

I was once writing for a dressage judge when one of the horse's resisted badly and never did perform a particular movement. The horse should have had a 0 with the comment "not performed". Instead the judge gave that movement a 7, and commented to me that this horse usually does much better than this. I'm sorry, I call that politics....had the horse & rider been strangers to this judge the mark would have been a 0, but because she knew this horse would normally do a better job of that movement, she awarded him a 7. I was SO disappointed in what I learned of dressage judging that day... Dressage, where people say you are competing against yourself...not hardly, not when a judge scores you on the best ride she ever saw you give, rather than on the ride she sees in front of her today.

And yeah, I've been to shows where I wondered if I were doing well because the judge really thought I had the best horses, or if he was giving me first in everything because of politics...one show especially! We could do no wrong with our horses that day--it was an open show, big classes with horses of all breeds, and we won everything we entered. Then I showed a friends horses in a few classes, and they won too, in everything I took them in...really had to question the politics after I came out with the 1st place ribbon for the broodmare class, where I showed a really poor quality mare for this friend.

Hmm, someone hand me over a cow to take into this next class, and we'll see how I do with that...

I have also been to a show where I watched and watched and couldn't figure out what the judge was looking for....until I gave up judging the horses and started choosing handlers in order of "importance"--and then my order of placings matched perfectly to the judge's every time!! I definitely had a hard time shrugging off the idea of "politics" with that one.

I have to say that I believe politics do exist in horse showing, and much more often than some people like to admit or believe. Does that keep me from showing? No. But if I knew the judge were someone that really didn't like me and wasn't going to use my horses, I would stay home. Likewise if I know the judge likes Saddlebred type and I have QH type, or vice versa, I'm going to leave those "wrong type" horses at home and pick out some that are closer to what the judge will like. If I have a choice of horses to show I figure that I may as well select those that I think will give me the best chance in the ring--especially considering how expensive it is to show any more.

But, I do love showing so if I have my horses ready to show and they perform well, it's a good day!