Dog people

[Minimor]

Thank you all--I have to say I've found this to be a lively discussion and enjoyed hearing the different opinions...except for that one hateful post.

And I have to say that was the most hateful post I've seen on this forum in quite sometime!

So, now I know that not everyone shares my friend's view of Cesar--some people like him, some people don't...that's what I was curious about, if everyone thought he's as wonderful as she said.

THank you all!

 

[Carriage]

Anyone want to discuss prong collars now?

What are you crazy?!!!! My flame suit ain't that thick. <G> And besides I was just told that my credentials didn't mean spit and therefore my "unenlightened" opinions are not welcome. Wished I'd known that years ago. I knew I should have gone into international banking, I woulda been bailed out by now.....

 

[Sterling]

I thought I'd like to put my two cents for whatever it's worth on this thread too. I watch Cesar Millan's show and I have two of his books. As far as his methods go I take what I want and leave what I want.

I agree with this statement that tagalong said: "It is the same thing with any trainer - be it equine or canine. You take what you like from one approach, use a little of something else from another program, other bits from here and there... and thus find the blend that works for you."

Not every animal is alike and every approach works the same for every one of them. Just like people. Oh and I also watch Gloria Stillwell..... I'm not a fanatic about them....but they have some interesting pointers the two of them.

 

[tagalong]

and I'm currently working with my collie...my WIMPY little collie...and I know for a fact that Cesar's methods would not work on her!

I was just rereading this thread - and noticed that ^^^ comment...

Not true... mainly because what has been presented on that other dog training site and here by some - is not the whole picture. He has worked very well with wimpy dogs as well, but you would not know it from some of the venom you read...

Last night the satellite was out so I scanned through stuff I had recorded from months ago - and there were a couple of Dog Whisperers on the lst.

The one I watched (with renewed interest after this thread) was interesting - nothing brutal or harsh as so many insist is Cesar's Way. I might not have done things the same way - but it is all information that you can take or leave, use or not as you wish.

One white, fluffy dog was a stray a young girl had adopted - the poor dog was afraid of men. Afraid of loud noises. Afraid of her shadow, at times. And Cesar showed the owner ways to help the dog calm down... relax... understand that she was not in danger. Not just desensitize her - but show her that she (both owner and dog) could deal with it.

But I realize that does not jibe with the constant droning about his harsh methods. You need to see a sampling of things - different dogs, different cases - for yourself and not always rely on what you are told. Same as with any trainer. Horses, dogs, platypuses. Playtpi?

Again - I am not blowing Cesar's horn or holding him up at the Be All And End All - far from it. But equally - there is a lot of misrepresentation being presented as fact. One second in time screen captures being presented as evidence of "abuse".

And the calm, indirect way he dealt with that nervous, frightened dog - and helped her - said a lot to me.

But yeah - training is like a buffet... take a bit of that, some of that - and you heap your plate up with what you need. Some things you may not like - and yet you may go back for seconds with something else. There is no One Way.

 

[mininik]

Tagalong ~ It'd be interesting to hear what you think after reading something like Brenda Aloff's "Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide," or Turid Rugaas' "Calming Signals," or Barbara Handelman's "Canine Behavior: A Photo Illustrated Handbook" and then watching those not so harsh seeming episodes of The Dog Whisperer with the sound off. It's not that I think Cesar has absolutely no good points whatsoever (I agree that dogs need a job, socialization, plenty of mental and physical exercise, a healthy diet, vet care, and their owners not freaking out around them), but more often than not Cesar is recommending outdated methods to suppress unwanted behaviors based upon his experiences and observations of dogs, and using an outdated theory that came about from observations of wolves in captivity as support for his method.

 

[My-Lil-Pony]

Sometimes there is something to be said for those so called out dated or old fashioned methods in any training program or heck even raising children.

 

[tagalong]

Tagalong ~ It'd be interesting to hear what you think after reading something like Brenda Aloff's "Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide," or Turid Rugaas' "Calming Signals," or Barbara Handelman's "Canine Behavior: A Photo Illustrated Handbook" and then watching those not so harsh seeming episodes of The Dog Whisperer with the sound off.

Maybe if you saw the episodes I saw... with the sound on if you like

... you would note that he was using the dog's body language - reading it and working with it... and using the handler's body language to help that fearful dog as well. You know, calming signals. Non-confrontational. Working with that individual dog's needs. There is absolutely nothing "outdated" about that.

And those cases were not harsh... I am more than capable of knowing what "seems" harsh and what isn't... unlike what you seem to be suggesting.

more often than not Cesar is recommending outdated methods to suppress unwanted behaviors based upon his experiences and observations of dogs

Hmmm... but that is what a good trainer is all about. You work with an animal based on your experience and observations to find what works best for that individual animal. No One Way, as I said.

 

[mininik]

Complete quotes are cool...

So, did Cesar use flooding with the dogs? Yey if it worked and didn't backfire. I've seen plenty of Cesar's shows and have two of his books. I haven't noticed him using or suggesting the use of any calming signals, such as turning away from the dogs, licking your lips, yawning, blinking, etc. On the other hand I have seen plenty of the dogs giving calming signals (either directly inwardly and/or as an indication of stress).

Ah, here... this about sums it up for me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIpxI5QGmcg

 

[tagalong]

I haven't noticed him using or suggesting the use of any calming signals, such as turning away from the dogs,

Bolding mine. mininik - I do not always use complete quotes as there is often only a part of it that I am referring to that is relevant. Why post an entire paragraph when you are only referring to to one small section? I guess nothing I can do or say is right, huh.

Anyway - YES - I saw him do exactly that ^^ - turning away from the dog, not meeting her eyes, not focussing on her, letting her come to him, inviting her in etc. Just because you yourself may not have seen him use those methods does not mean that he (or anyone else) has not done so. And in some cases, maybe some level of flooding will help a dog - it would all depend on the individual situation.

That snarky The Soup vid cracked me up... Norwegian Warhound??!!... Bwahahahah!!

Anyway, different techniques for different dogs. Different people (and dogs) handle things different ways. And as I have said a gazillion times already - and you seem to want to dispute or argue - you can use a bit of Everyone's methods to suit your individual needs. I also said that I did not care for all his methods/solutions - but you seem to have ignored that. And you have said you liked some of what he does... so I guess I am not understanding why you are so adamant about something you did not see... or maybe only want to see one way.

And for the last time - there is no One Way.

 

[mininik]

Some of what Cesar says to do is what any decent trainer will say to do. The opposite of what I said I agree with would be not exercising your dog, not feeding a quality diet, not giving proper veterinary care... you get the point. I'm thrilled to know that Cesar isn't always neck grabbing, collar popping, alpha rolling and tchhhushing dogs to rehabilitate them, but I digress. There's definitely more than One Way and I never said there wasn't. I'm going to go strap myself to a tree now to make sure I don't get sucked into space. Gravity doesn't work for me!

 

[Mona]

Some of what Cesar says to do is what any decent trainer will say to do. The opposite of what I said I agree with would be not exercising your dog, not feeding a quality diet, not giving proper veterinary care... you get the point. I'm thrilled to know that Cesar isn't always neck grabbing, collar popping, alpha rolling and tchhhushing dogs to rehabilitate them, but I digress. There's definitely more than One Way and I never said there wasn't. I'm going to go strap myself to a tree now to make sure I don't get sucked into space. Gravity doesn't work for me!

I was going to stay out of this, but now have decided to say that although it's been a long while since I watched Cesar, I used to watch it every day. I only stopped watching because I got tired of all the reruns. I LOVE his show, and I do feel that what he does for those dogs and their owners (for the most part) is wonderful! I think he has a natural ability with the dogs.

I did quote your entire paragraph here, but the part I really want to respond to I have bolded. From watching several episodes, I have seen him exercising the dogs, bringing them to the vet, and also feeding them a veterinary approved brand of dog food. The food may be one that you are not happy with since I think I remember that you prefer to feed RAW/BARF type foods, but since it is veterinary approved, it cannot be all that bad if it contains all the required nutrients etc. I just don't think it is fair to paint him so poorly because you have differing opinions.

 

[mininik]

It's not that I think Cesar has absolutely no good points whatsoever (I agree that dogs need a job, socialization, plenty of mental and physical exercise, a healthy diet, vet care, and their owners not freaking out around them), but more often than not Cesar is recommending outdated methods to suppress unwanted behaviors based upon his experiences and observations of dogs, and using an outdated theory that came about from observations of wolves in captivity as support for his method.

Mona, I was refering to an earlier post of mine in which I said I agreed with Cesar on the basics, which any decent dog trainer will say to do.

But for the record, Science Diet is one of those "veterinary recommended" brands and while it may contain "required nutrients," it also contains stuff I won't pay to feed to my dogs.

 

[mad for mini's]

I've watched Ceasar and have seen most of his shows, I always enjoyed them and am amazed at the results he gets. I know there is alot behind the scenes that doesn't get shown and results are not a quick as what it seems but all in all he is amazing. I have to admitt though, I would not want him training my dogs personally but I will and do use his methods with my own dogs. I am the only one that really "knows" my dogs and how much or little "pack leadership" they need. Like mentioned before you take what you can use and leave the rest. The only thing I don't like is his "red zone" cases, I don't care how much training or rehabbing one of those dogs gets, when left in the hands of an untrained person they will relapse and someone will get hurt.

 

[Carriage]

But for the record, Science Diet is one of those "veterinary recommended" brands and while it may contain "required nutrients," it also contains stuff I won't pay to feed to my dogs.

Boy howdy! If its science, its mad science. Used to be the diet with the highest number of known carcinogenic compounds erroneously referred to as "preservatives". Wonder if they were in favor of pinch collars?..............

Bb

 

[mininik]

LOL I like to call it Science Experiment.

From the International Positive Dog Training Association:

What is abuse?

Abuse is physical or psychological injury caused by mistreatment

or the misuse of power associated with authority. It is a corrupt practice

or custom, improper or excessive use or treatment. It is a deceitful act,

it is a communication that condemns or vilifies unjustly,

intemperately and angrily.

The IPDTA defines abuse in training and behaviour modification

as the use of any tool or technique that was created or used with the intent to cause harm to a dog including but not limited to; injury, pain, fear, or mistrust, be it physical, psychological, emotional or behavioural.

Those that truly love dogs will not abuse them!!!

The IPDTA believe the following to be potentially abusive;

choke chains, pinch collars, shock equipment, alpha rollovers and other forms of physical punishment and/or domination, hanging, kicking or hitting of any kind, or any other tool or technique that causes fear or pain for the dog.

 

[Boss Mare]

It's not that I think Cesar has absolutely no good points whatsoever (I agree that dogs need a job, socialization, plenty of mental and physical exercise, a healthy diet, vet care, and their owners not freaking out around them), but more often than not Cesar is recommending outdated methods to suppress unwanted behaviors based upon his experiences and observations of dogs, and using an outdated theory that came about from observations of wolves in captivity as support for his method.

Mona, I was refering to an earlier post of mine in which I said I agreed with Cesar on the basics, which any decent dog trainer will say to do.

But for the record, Science Diet is one of those "veterinary recommended" brands and while it may contain "required nutrients," it also contains stuff I won't pay to feed to my dogs.

I am a dog groomer also. I work for a well known retail pet corp.. did I give it away?! *wink*.. I disagree with a lot and agree with some.. however.. to get into another topic..

I remember watching the show and watching him feed his 'pack' Pedigree dog food..

of course this was before he made special visits to our store, grooming salon, etc.. and introduced a new line of not only dog food, but bottled dog water, beds and toys..

 

[Celtic Hill Farm]

Ok, i got a link of of a link that Mininik posted and found this rather interesting

He uses physical punishment and “flooding” in order to suppress a dog's behavior. Physical punishment involves applying a physical aversive to reduce the probability of the behavior continuing. “Flooding” refers to physically forcing a dog into an overwhelming situation he or she is afraid of until the dog “shuts down” or the behavior is suppressed.

...*silence*...Great!!!... just what i want!

...

here's the link... http://www.dogwhispererdvd.com/faq-nationa..._whisperer.html

 

[mininik]

I am a dog groomer also. I work for a well known retail pet corp.. did I give it away?! *wink*.. I disagree with a lot and agree with some.. however.. to get into another topic..
I remember watching the show and watching him feed his 'pack' Pedigree dog food..

of course this was before he made special visits to our store, grooming salon, etc.. and introduced a new line of not only dog food, but bottled dog water, beds and toys..

I know which Petsomething you work for because I have seen his line of products there.

Here's a place to read some reviews:

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_re...042&cat=all

It's not something I'll buy, but I guess at least it's better than Pedigree.

 

[My-Lil-Pony]

Imagine if one were to watch prep and a actual halter class. Twitches, chains, snapping on leads, God Forbid anyone even saw the appliances used on Moderns or Gaited horses. Clipping in a 50 blade, razoring OH! Sarcasam is intended for those not sure

Of course choke chains and other things can be abusive anything can be abusive! I am not strongly promoting him I just find this if it is not my way it is the wrong way overwhelming sometimes.

 

[Celtic Hill Farm]

Of course choke chains and other things can be abusive anything can be abusive!

I really like what you just said, and I'm going to ad on to it. I think Training collars are appropriate if used in the correct way! Just like some horses just need to be lead with a chain over there nose, Some dogs need a training collar. Sometimes it's just a 'reminder'. I don't think constant use is appropriate, If you are having to constantly "yank" on the chain, obviously something is wrong and just yanking on it dose no good. It really depends on who you are, and how your using it.

*Wait to get slammed*