I've been there, done that and don't have to imagine. I've seen enough and am tired of excusing some of the stressful, abusive and downright torturous things people do to animals because that's what it takes "to win," or teach an animal "a lesson." While it's true that "anything can be abusive," some devices and methods lend themselves to being abusive more easily than others.Imagine if one were to watch prep and a actual halter class. Twitches, chains, snapping on leads, God Forbid anyone even saw the appliances used on Moderns or Gaited horses. Clipping in a 50 blade, razoringOH! Sarcasam is intended for those not sure
Of course choke chains and other things can be abusive anything can be abusive! I am not strongly promoting him I just find this if it is not my way it is the wrong way overwhelming sometimes.
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tagalong
Well-Known Member
Well, I guess I am abusive then - flame away - as when my smooth fox terrier has decided that she does not care for another dog at flyball and growls and gets her hackles up to launch at him - she gets a "terrier treatment". An Alpha rollover. Whatever you want to call it. And NO - it is not abusive IMO. I am not picking her up and slamming her to the ground, I am not yelling in her face, I am simply saying NO. In a way that will instantly address the severity of the situation. I am not angry with her - I am just saying in a calm, quiet, BIG way that the current behaviour is a NO. OTOH, my border terrier is a far less confident and cocky little guy and such a thing would be waaaaay over the top for him - and never even considered. Mind you, he is not of the I Can Kick Your Butt No Matter How Big You Are mindset that the smooth is...
And no - I did not learn it from Cesar Milan...
had the gift of CLICK!! More like the curse....
These two dimbulbs and their Sheltie and Bearded Collie turned many people off clicker training in ten short weeks. The lesson was a constant barrage of CLICKCLICKCLICKCLICK with no rhyme or reason to it - punctuated by chirpy Good Boys!! seemingly at random. If the other students and dogs in the class were fed up, their dogs were even more so.
The Sheltie barked non-stop in seeming exasperation - he had no clue what his handler wanted him to do or what was good or bad - as CLICKCLICKCLICK continued unabated. The Beardie had simply tuned everything out. And yet these two women told us they wanted to work with our dogs and "actually train them". Not a chance.
ANY thing can be abusive - when used to excess or in the wrong way.
Science Diet? Ick. I have never liked it and have yet to meet a dog (or cat) who did, to be honest.
And no - I did not learn it from Cesar Milan...
Two women who took an agility class with me a couple of years ago thought that they were freakin' Dog Whisperers... of the clicker variety. They argued with the instructor about everything... how best to teach the teeter-totter... the A frame... everything! They knew better!! Why? Because they had read all about agility in a book - and more importantly, they
had the gift of CLICK!! More like the curse....
These two dimbulbs and their Sheltie and Bearded Collie turned many people off clicker training in ten short weeks. The lesson was a constant barrage of CLICKCLICKCLICKCLICK with no rhyme or reason to it - punctuated by chirpy Good Boys!! seemingly at random. If the other students and dogs in the class were fed up, their dogs were even more so.
The Sheltie barked non-stop in seeming exasperation - he had no clue what his handler wanted him to do or what was good or bad - as CLICKCLICKCLICK continued unabated. The Beardie had simply tuned everything out. And yet these two women told us they wanted to work with our dogs and "actually train them". Not a chance.
ANY thing can be abusive - when used to excess or in the wrong way.
Science Diet? Ick. I have never liked it and have yet to meet a dog (or cat) who did, to be honest.
Reijel's Mom
Well-Known Member
No flames here. Only gentleness.
For you see, admission is the first step on the road to recovery.
Bb
Huh?
For you see, admission is the first step on the road to recovery.
Bb
Huh?
Sonya
Well-Known Member
I don't have anything negative to say about Cesar nor anything extremely positive since I know very little about him. But I am always amazed at all the self-proclaimed experts on this forum. Experts who don't even work in the field they claim to be an "expert" on. Some of the "experts" are barely out of college and have very little experience on the subject and life in general. Not that everyone doesn't have something positive to offer, I think they do for the most part...probably even Cesar.
Guess you can chalk me up to being an abusive owner as well as I have used a shock collar before. Don't use it now as there is no need. And I have fed my dog Science Diet prescription....I must be going straight to h_ll.
Guess you can chalk me up to being an abusive owner as well as I have used a shock collar before. Don't use it now as there is no need. And I have fed my dog Science Diet prescription....I must be going straight to h_ll.
My-Lil-Pony
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LOL I have fed my now 12 year old large breed dog Pedigree for many years she is wonderful and healthy according to the vet and every routine test she has had. I guess I better decorate my handbasket and be ready to join you
Minimor, I trust you got the feedback you were looking for before it degenerated into attacks by the usual subjects looking to pick fights and marginalize opinion not agreeing with theirs. It would seem that no amount of qualification will suffice for some folk.
Oh well Happy Days. We're finally getting little patches of sunshine today.
Bb
(self proclaimed happy guy who is young on the inside)
Oh well Happy Days. We're finally getting little patches of sunshine today.
Bb
(self proclaimed happy guy who is young on the inside)
Tagalong ~ I suggest Leslie McDevitt's book, Control Unleashed. Check out http://www.controlunleashed.net for more info. The alpha roll you are currently doing doesn't allow consideration of why your dog is going after the other dogs or teach him what to do differently (the problem with "NO") and so he keeps repeating the behavior. Is he reactive out of fear? Is he Anxious? Stressed? Over stimulated? Is he redirecting? Does he lack impulse control? Handler focus? Perhaps he just doesn't like every dog he meets (and that's okay). By working with him to teach appropriate alternative behaviors you won't have to alpha roll him anymore.
Sonya ~ Who's claiming to be an expert? Oh, nevermind; look, by definition, since others have different EXPERIENCE and TRAINING, blah blah blah, they, too, can be considered self-proclaimed experts on this thread for their participation! Woohoo.
Main Entry: 1ex·pert
Pronunciation: \ˈek-ˌspərt, ik-ˈ\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin expertus, from past participle of experiri
Date: 14th century
1obsolete : experienced
2: having, involving, or displaying special skill or knowledge derived from training or experience
synonyms see proficient
& My-Lil-Pony ~ Lots of people eat junk food every day and remain (or at least look) healthy for years. Some live a very long life that way. Some people also live long lives smoking cigarattes, doing drugs, not exercising, etc. Some people eat great, don't smoke, don't do drugs and exercise and die young. I don't find any of that a good reason not to feed a better quality diet to myself or my dogs knowing that plenty of dogs and people DO eventually show ill signs of poor nutrition.
Sonya ~ Who's claiming to be an expert? Oh, nevermind; look, by definition, since others have different EXPERIENCE and TRAINING, blah blah blah, they, too, can be considered self-proclaimed experts on this thread for their participation! Woohoo.
Main Entry: 1ex·pert
Pronunciation: \ˈek-ˌspərt, ik-ˈ\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin expertus, from past participle of experiri
Date: 14th century
1obsolete : experienced
2: having, involving, or displaying special skill or knowledge derived from training or experience
synonyms see proficient
& My-Lil-Pony ~ Lots of people eat junk food every day and remain (or at least look) healthy for years. Some live a very long life that way. Some people also live long lives smoking cigarattes, doing drugs, not exercising, etc. Some people eat great, don't smoke, don't do drugs and exercise and die young. I don't find any of that a good reason not to feed a better quality diet to myself or my dogs knowing that plenty of dogs and people DO eventually show ill signs of poor nutrition.
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LowriseMinis
Well-Known Member
Exactly. If you CAN do better for your dog, why wouldn't you?
And I guess you can toss me in the anti-Cesar camp, too. He calls himself the Dog Whisperer and I certainly consider him the Monty Roberts of dogs-and no, that isn't a compliment for him!
tagalong
Well-Known Member
Carriage - that is beyond rude and condescending.
The fact that maybe twice a year my smooth fox needs a quiet reminder to not do something inappropriate in the midst of a particular situation - and that you are smugly suggesting that I am abusing her - is way out of line.
\
mininik - I appreciate that you can simply read something and thus expertly diagnose what is going on with Fig. And she does have alternate behaviours to do. I am not the dimwit you seem to think I am. Fig has achieved her ONYX level in Flyball - happily and with enthusiasm - as well as Agility titles... so I guess this dimwit must be doing something right.
Some of it is overstimulation and excitement as it is at Flyball.... you can call it whatever you choose and read all the books in the world (which, again is someone using their experience and their observations to offer solutions - but you already pooh-poohed that approach in earlier posts) but at the moment it is happening (which is rare as I noted) I deal with it quietly, fairly and quickly - and yes, it allows consideration of why. Despite what you have diagnosed on a message board without having seen it happen, understanding the situation or knowing Fig and me.
And yes - I have read Control Unleashed. But I am sure you realize that all dogs are not robots programmed to do exactly what a book or an expert says they will/should do ... they have their own "book" to follow and their own chapters to write.
Not a compliment at all
And what I experienced behind the scenes at a Join Up demo just proved that he was a blowhard... but that is off topic for this thread.
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AppyLover2
Well-Known Member
I don't even know who Cesar is. Just wanted to say WOW,.... I haven't seen this much "discussion" since Nov 4th (or was it the 5th?).
Tagalong ~ I'm sorry, I must have missed my own expert diagnosis? It's great that you've read Control Unleashed.
Thinking of animals as little input-output boxes really isn't the Disneyesque view pet owners love, but it's true. Your dog reacting (even once or twice a year) to me is information. Obviously one can choose to do whatever they want with that information. And your dog is still competing and winning. Of course there are many animals out there who perform amazingly despite even extreme punishment. But even the Monks of New Skete (who popularized the alpha roll in the seventies) have recently taken a stand against such treatment.
Learning is changing what we do.
Thinking of animals as little input-output boxes really isn't the Disneyesque view pet owners love, but it's true. Your dog reacting (even once or twice a year) to me is information. Obviously one can choose to do whatever they want with that information. And your dog is still competing and winning. Of course there are many animals out there who perform amazingly despite even extreme punishment. But even the Monks of New Skete (who popularized the alpha roll in the seventies) have recently taken a stand against such treatment.
Learning is changing what we do.
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Mona
Well-Known Member
I think it is truely a sad, sad day when all of us dog owners can not be free to take differing approaches to teaching/training our dogs, or to feed our dogs something that others do not approve of! When those people objecting are the ones living the daily life of training/teaching, and feeding, and paying the feed bills for my animals, then fine, they can have their say, but what some of you consider to be "ABUSE" is seeming very close to the same mindset of PETA! In my opinion, it is getting WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY out of hand!!
Yes, I discipline my dogs, just as I discipline my horses, as have I disciplined my children and even grandchildren. When used accordingly, and not out of control, it does help to teach! I grew up with a few spankings and swats, and getting grounded when needed, and believe me, we learned from it...learned RESPECT, which is far more than many chidren these days show! I feel that our pets can be the same....they need to know their boundaries, and who is boss...one does not have to be mean in order to teach that, but a scolding or light form of punishment will not cause a mental breakdown on a "normal" minded dog. Sure, there always are exceptrions to the rules, but overall, they learn what is acceptable and what is not.
If I am being accused of abuse because of it, then so be it, but I'll be darned if I will hide here (on this forum) too scared to say that I do or what I feed! If my dog needs a scolding or a shake of the neck, or if my horse needs a jerk on the lead or is being forced to "back", or if my child or grandchild gets a swat on the butt, it's because they need a reminder of what is appropriate and what is not!
I feed Pedigree
...have done so for years, always with healthy results. I did take the advice from some on the Forum and switched at one point to Nutro...now that was a bad experience! My shiny, healthy coated dogs became dull and flakey. There was no decrease to the volume of stool. The smell was out of this world, and was not properly formed. After about 4 huge bags of it, I changed back over, and am now happy to see the healthy, shiny coats again. I have also in the past fed canned Pedigree (chicken) in with the dry and I also feed Pedigree DentaStix and Pedigree Jumbone as treats. My dogs LOVE it all, the food and the treats! So sure, maybe I can switch to something different, and just as you said, maybe I can also change my own eating habits to something better, but until you are the one footing the bills for my family and my dogs, you have no say in the matter, and have no right to belittle people here for making the choices they do in what they feed. I am tired of hiding and of being too scared to type something here because of those of you that disapprove. I will not be shamed into doing so any further!
My dogs are very well cared for, very well loved, recieve nutritional food, and wonderful vet care. If I truely felt the food I was feeding was harming them, I would not be feeding it.
Yes, I discipline my dogs, just as I discipline my horses, as have I disciplined my children and even grandchildren. When used accordingly, and not out of control, it does help to teach! I grew up with a few spankings and swats, and getting grounded when needed, and believe me, we learned from it...learned RESPECT, which is far more than many chidren these days show! I feel that our pets can be the same....they need to know their boundaries, and who is boss...one does not have to be mean in order to teach that, but a scolding or light form of punishment will not cause a mental breakdown on a "normal" minded dog. Sure, there always are exceptrions to the rules, but overall, they learn what is acceptable and what is not.
If I am being accused of abuse because of it, then so be it, but I'll be darned if I will hide here (on this forum) too scared to say that I do or what I feed! If my dog needs a scolding or a shake of the neck, or if my horse needs a jerk on the lead or is being forced to "back", or if my child or grandchild gets a swat on the butt, it's because they need a reminder of what is appropriate and what is not!
I feed Pedigree
My dogs are very well cared for, very well loved, recieve nutritional food, and wonderful vet care. If I truely felt the food I was feeding was harming them, I would not be feeding it.
My-Lil-Pony
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Thank you Mona for putting into words exactly what I was feeling!
Sometimes this board can be intimidating.
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Punishment can certainly teach and nobody here has claimed otherwise. That said, punishment does not have to be physical or verbal. Negative Punishment works just as well, especially when you take into consideration that dogs are opportunists not so much concerned with learning our very human concepts of "right and wrong," or even "respect." Negative Punishment also works with kids, horses, cats, whales, monkeys... platipi, etc.
Nutro is not bad, but it isn't one of the best foods out there and is not guaranteed to work for all dogs. Some dogs can't eat kibble no matter WHAT it's made of. Some dogs can't eat raw. If I'm looking to better my diet, just because I may not do well on a diet of frozen TV dinners after coming off of eating junk food, I don't think that's a good reason to stick to McDonalds.
I personally don't believe one diet (from a can, box or bag) for life can be complete and so I keep my dogs on a rotational diet of top brands and raw. No matter what I feed I have no doubt that my carnivores should not be eating Ground Whole Corn, (Mystery) Meat and Bone Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, (Mystery) Animal Fat (preserved with BHA/BHT - a carcinogen) or Wheat Mill Run, and that's mainly what makes up Pedigree. I believe it's been said on the forum that most who own horses aren't dirt poor, so I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that whether you can afford feeding something more expensive or not would depend upon priorities. In other words, I could have ten dogs here instead of seven, but would probably have to stop feeding them as well or cut back on the lattes and eating out.
Nutro is not bad, but it isn't one of the best foods out there and is not guaranteed to work for all dogs. Some dogs can't eat kibble no matter WHAT it's made of. Some dogs can't eat raw. If I'm looking to better my diet, just because I may not do well on a diet of frozen TV dinners after coming off of eating junk food, I don't think that's a good reason to stick to McDonalds.
I personally don't believe one diet (from a can, box or bag) for life can be complete and so I keep my dogs on a rotational diet of top brands and raw. No matter what I feed I have no doubt that my carnivores should not be eating Ground Whole Corn, (Mystery) Meat and Bone Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, (Mystery) Animal Fat (preserved with BHA/BHT - a carcinogen) or Wheat Mill Run, and that's mainly what makes up Pedigree. I believe it's been said on the forum that most who own horses aren't dirt poor, so I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that whether you can afford feeding something more expensive or not would depend upon priorities. In other words, I could have ten dogs here instead of seven, but would probably have to stop feeding them as well or cut back on the lattes and eating out.
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anoki
Well-Known Member
You know what Mona, I totally agree with what you are saying!!
I posted my thoughts, because minimor wanted to know. The only reason I posted another reply was because I felt attacked.
Yes, I train with positive reinforcement, but I didn't always train this way. Had I not seen dogs turned around with this training, I probably wouldn't be doing it. But that is just 'why' I train this way. Just because I train with positive reinforcement DOES NOT mean my dogs are 'spoiled', that they don't listen to me and that they walk all over me. My dogs respect me...and know how to behave. I don't care how other people train their dogs, but I do hope they are open to 'other' training methods as I am. I don't use a clicker...can't stand them, and find 'most' (NOT ALL) people who train with them, don't understand what they are doing with them. I post about dog food when someone asks, but if they don't agree with it, I don't care..if they want more information, they know how to get ahold of me. I offered my opinion, I will not shove it down their throat. I guess what upsets me the most about Cesar are the people that watch (or read) him, take what they see and use it on ANY dog without really understanding when to use it.
But I digress..I'm not writing this to bash training methods or nutrition.
I am also "tired of hiding and of being too scared to type something here because of those of you that disapprove". Tired of being pegged as someone who because of my age has no knowledge of what I'm talking about and lack of life experiences or not enough experience in what I'm talking about to make a 'knowledgeable' comment on it. Whether these comments were aimed at me, or not, I don't care..but because of my age I guess I fit in the 'mould'.
No one has the right to post comments like that. You (not you Mona..this isn't aimed at you at all..these are just general statements that I've picked up on over time) do not know me, do not know what I have done in my life, and do not know what experiences I have or haven't had.
I'm tired of people 'labeling' people after one or two comments or posts...I feel like I'm some idiot yahoo who lets my dogs run all over me, which is far from how I am with them.
I hate people getting into such hot debates over things. Discussions are good. It allows people to voice opinions and maybe bring up some things (on both sides of the discussion) that the other side hadn't thought of before. But getting into verbal spats about things does no one any good...it just hurts people, whether it is intended to hurt the ones that it does end up hurting or not.
I've been really down for the past few months...had to put down my best friend for the past 12 years, have not gotten over it and have not forgiven myself for making the decision...and found out someone I held as a good friend, was no more than a leech who didn't care about my thoughts, opinions or emotions, unless it benefited them. People have really let me down the past few months....doesn't seem like it's getting much better.
I'll go back to posting on threads where opinions don't matter...
~kathryn
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tagalong
Well-Known Member
mininik - you know, I love a good discussion and an exchange of ideas and opinions - but it would help if you could discuss without being so condescending and dismissive at times...
No dog in my entire life - or horse, for that matter - has ever been thought of as a little "input-output box". That sounds PETA-esque as opposed to Disneyesque.
You have no idea of the dynamics in the situations involved... or know anything about Fig and me... or the other dogs and handlers present - and yet you can sit at your computer hundreds of miles away and decide I am being abusive? Without knowing anything about what was going on - you simply pass judgment...
Wrong.
Learning is indeed changing what we do - and I have over the years and will continue to do so.
Happy, well-rounded, obedience, agility, flyball, therapy and couch potato dogs are the result.
Learning is also realizing that you do not have all the answers - even if you think you do... and that using all those answers that you do not have to airily and summarily pass judgment on others is misguided.
And that - for the umpteenth time - there is no One Way to do anything - as dogs (or horses) are not robots who have read all the books and understand what they are expected to do in any given circumstance - and then behave accordingly.
As far as diet goes... I am still amazed that Sonya's dog likes Science Diet. That is not a slam - I just have never known a dog or cat who actually liked it. My guys vary between certain natural kibbles and supplements on rotation... raw does not agree with them.
But when a past boss's borzois lived to be 15 and 16 eating only Pedigree and the odd can of cheap, crappy dog food as a special "treat"... I am not about to lecture others on feeding. We all do what is best for our own dogs...
anoki - ((((HUGS))))
Where did that come from?
No dog in my entire life - or horse, for that matter - has ever been thought of as a little "input-output box". That sounds PETA-esque as opposed to Disneyesque.
Information about what?
You have no idea of the dynamics in the situations involved... or know anything about Fig and me... or the other dogs and handlers present - and yet you can sit at your computer hundreds of miles away and decide I am being abusive? Without knowing anything about what was going on - you simply pass judgment...
Wrong.
And again - what information would that be?
Yes - I read it..... and have been using the exercises to help Tug be more confident and focussed (he is a work in progress, as always) - so why the snide comment?It's great that you've read Control Unleashed.
I think you need to heed your own words a bit here.
Learning is indeed changing what we do - and I have over the years and will continue to do so.
Happy, well-rounded, obedience, agility, flyball, therapy and couch potato dogs are the result.
Learning is also realizing that you do not have all the answers - even if you think you do... and that using all those answers that you do not have to airily and summarily pass judgment on others is misguided.
And that - for the umpteenth time - there is no One Way to do anything - as dogs (or horses) are not robots who have read all the books and understand what they are expected to do in any given circumstance - and then behave accordingly.
As far as diet goes... I am still amazed that Sonya's dog likes Science Diet. That is not a slam - I just have never known a dog or cat who actually liked it. My guys vary between certain natural kibbles and supplements on rotation... raw does not agree with them.
But when a past boss's borzois lived to be 15 and 16 eating only Pedigree and the odd can of cheap, crappy dog food as a special "treat"... I am not about to lecture others on feeding. We all do what is best for our own dogs...
anoki - ((((HUGS))))
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Okay, I'll try to lead by your example.
I think I have all of the answers? How did I pass judgement? I said your dog reacting is information. What I meant is: A dog breaking a sit is information. A dog begging at the table is information, and so on. Input in-Input out. Please note that I didn't say WHAT information or that I think your dog IS anything (ex. reactive, lacking in handler focus, etc.) or even that I think you are abusing him as you believe it "seemed" when I went on to say that there are many animals who perform amazingly despite extreme abuse. I suggested a book. You've already read it. I mentioned that alpha rolls are no longer recommended by the trainers who popularized them. That's all.
No, animals aren't robots and can't read, but their behavior can be modified without the use of verbal and physical punishment and as PETA-esque as it may sound, I think they should be.
I've seen people who lived into their 80's, 90's and 100's eating junk, smoking, doing drugs, etc. I guess we shouldn't discuss alternatives and I'll be sure to have my feelings hurt the next time some health nut talks about why they wouldn't eat Hot Tamales with Diet Coke because of the unhealthy preservatives and aspartame in those foods. Oh well, I like eating junk food and it's certainly cheaper than the organic food those health nuts push, plus with all these animals to feed, well... priorities.But when a past boss's borzois lived to be 15 and 16 eating only Pedigree and the odd can of crappy dog food... I am not about to lecture others on feeding.
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tagalong
Well-Known Member
I edited out my answer to the extreme abuse comment - as I figured you would simply dismiss it.... and sure enough - you did.
You implied that you could glean "information" from what little I said - without, as I noted, knowing anything about the situation. That suggested to me that you "knew" how to fix it or had some great insight as to how I was wrong. You did suggest that I abused her - and I am sorry - that is not something to be airily tossed out there. Ever. And it could not be further from the truth. That's all.
I said I had read a book that you recommended - and then you even came back with a sneer and a wink about that....
Where did I - or anyone else - say alternatives could not be discussed? Everyone is more than entitled to share their opinion...
Learning - is also not being dismissive of others.
Carry on - I'll go back to abusing that poor traumatized terrier... and as I do not get the National Geographic channel - I rarely get to see Cesar Milan... (how's that for struggling to drag this thread back on topic?
And I am still in the process of learning along with the dogs and horses - and always will be. I'll never have all the answers - and thus I will never always be "right" - about anything...
[SIZE=8pt]*edited stuff out because it was simply not worth it... *[/SIZE]
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Yep, because I wasn't implying that you were "extremely abusing" your terrier.
I could glean "information" from what little you said, but I did not say I knew how to fix your dog, did I? I suggested a book, I did not say "THIS WILL FIX IT!" Do I think alpha rolls are abusive? If I do, does it really matter? I did post where the International Positive Dog Training Association says it is. Is that airily tossing it out there?
...or as if reading the book and applying it are two separate things.I said I had read a book that you recommended - and then you even came back with a sneer and a wink about that....as if you did not believe me - or perhaps thought I did not "get it"...
PS. I believe the emoticon is simply "wink."
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