DOT Laws

[JourneysEnd]

Information one of my clients just received.

I, and the horse community, desperately need your help in explaining the laws of a DOT number. Many of us are confused regarding the laws of a D.O.T. number and a CDL license. I’ve read the outline on the web page, I still can’t determine if I need one or not and I need to know so I can comply with the laws of the state. We hear from some people that we are NOT commercial and do not need them, then we hear of people being stopped and fined. Before we travel to Oklahoma next month I need to know for sure what we need to do.

Let me explain, I am a resident of Texas, I have miniature horses/ponies. I show them and train them myself. I drive a one ton Dooley or a ¾ ton truck pulling a 22’ gooseneck horse trailer. The manufacture’s weight for my truck is 11,500, the trailer is 10,000 lbs. I took the truck/trailer to a weigh station and had it weighed empty, it weighed 19,000 lbs. Some states requires a DOT number for commercial trucks. I need know 4 things.

1. Am I considered commercial?

2. Am I required to obtain a DOT number to show horses out of state?

3. Am I required to obtain a Commercial Driver’s License (CDL) since my weight is less than 26,001 lbs?

4. Do I need to stop at all truck weigh stations or do I need to stop only at ones that pertain to livestock/agriculture inspections?

Really hope you can answer these questions, we are really confused as what we need to do.

From: Mike England [mailto:[email protected]]

I understand the horse community is confused. A lot of people think they don’t need to worry about the DOT at all if they are NOT FOR HIRE. I see this phrase on the side of a truck from time to time and I wonder why people do it – if you are transporting ANYTHING across a state line in commerce, and the truck is greater than 10,000 GVWR you WILL need to be registered with the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration [this means you will need a DOT # on the truck]

Let’s check on the definition of “In Commerce” – when you go to a horse show, if you win, do you get money? Or just a trophy? And, if you get a trophy does it make the horse more valuable? Either of the POSSIBILITY of a cash prize or the business concept in the second question would qualify for ‘in commerce’

Because your rig is less than 26,000 GVWR you will not need a CDL, BUT let me be sure you are looking at the right thing to determine gross combination weight; 90% of the time the DOT looks at the manufacturer’s gross vehicle weight rating of each unit – truck and trailer – so don’t focus on actual weight or licensing but instead on the Manufacturer’s GVWR – you can find this info on the sticker inside the driver’s door of the truck but it sounds like you’ve got that figgered out already.

With regard to the weigh stations, first I am going to tell you what my understanding is then I’m going to go back through some notes on the DOT regs to see if there is an exemption or some reason it might not apply to a person transporting miniature horses / ponies.

First, here is the 85% solution; you are supposed to pull in each time a scale is open and if you sail past they might send a trooper to chase you down. But, as I said, I’m going to check to see if this is current and if it applies to you.

When I say private carrier that applies to you – a private carrier is someone who does something other than operate a fleet of CMVs (commercial motor vehicles).

Unless I miss my guess, you will need a hand with driver qualification files, hours of service documentation, and maintenance records, and if it is a one-horse operation (pardon the pun) or a multi-small-horse operation (training facility or hauling horses for money) with only one driver and one Commercial Motor Vehicle.

- Mike England

DOT Compliance Help, Inc.

Per our phone conversation I am sending you few definitions that could help you out. What is in black is straight from the regulation book. I will provide more in blue to try and help you understand.

All information provided here is for interstate transportation. Transportation within a single state may have different regulations.

Part 383.3

Commerce means (a) any trade, traffic or transportation within the jurisdiction of the United States between a place in a State and a place outside of such State, including a place outside of the United States and (b) trade, traffic, and transportation in the United States which affects any trade, traffic, and transportation described in paragraph (a) of this definition.

If you are involved in any transportation that is part of a business you are 'in commerce' (this means hauling horses and getting paid for mileage or showing). So someone transporting horses for a hobby that is not receiving any prize if they win is not in commerce. A Trainer that is transporting horses to show for someone else is 'in commerce'. If you are not 'in commerce' no need to read on because you are not subject to the regulations.

Part 390.5

Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—

(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or

(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or

(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or

(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.

(1) Any vehicle that weights or the weight rating is over 10,000 lbs is a CMV.

For-hire motor carrier means a person engaged in the transportation of goods or passengers for compensation.

If you transport any goods for someone else and are paid, directly or indirectly, to do so then you are for-hire.

Private motor carrier means a person who provides transportation of property or passengers, by commercial motor vehicle, and is not a for-hire motor carrier.

If you transport your own good in furtherance of your primary business but not for anyone else you are a private motor carrier.

Here is a link ETA - A Motor Carrier's Guide to Improving Highway Safety http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/safety-security/eta/index.htm .

This link is to the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations on-line. http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations...?section_type=A

This link is a questioner that after answering all the questions will help you understand if you are subject to the regulations. If you are there will be link to the forms you need.

If you have any questions feel free to call.

Jeff Langloss

Federal Program Manager

FMCSA TX-Division

512-916-5440 ext: 224

 

[~Lisa~]

So I read that as most would need a DOT number then?

 

[muffntuf]

Still clear as mud? The only thing I got from it, is if you make money on anything when you are hauling - you are needing a dot. Or if you are a trainer hauling other client's horses, you need a dot. Correct?

 

[txminipinto]

Basically that is right. the most important thing to do is check to see if your state is a DOT state. Texas is not. However, when you cross statelines you apparently must be in compliance with their laws. I have been personally told to NOT get a DOT until I'm pulled over and told to. Once you have a DOT, you must abide by all their rules and regulations. And that means log books, fuel taxes, drug tests and more.

 

[JourneysEnd]

The way it reads to me is, most trainers with a 1 ton truck crossing state lines need to be the most aware of this.

 

[txminipinto]

All you need is a 3/4 ton to be concerned. My entire rig (3/4 ton w/alum. GN) weighs 19,000lbs.

 

[txminipinto]

Just spoke with a neighbor of mine who raises Quarter Horses and campaigns all over the USA. She has never heard of this either, nor has she even mentioned in the AQHA circles. Which raises the question...why is it such big news HERE, but no where else? On the general equine boards I haven't found any mention of it either.

This "enforcement" will affect all aspects of the equine industry, yet I've heard no chatter about it except within the mini industry. WHY?

 

[~Lisa~]

I know large horse people who were stopped and fined a large amount of money.I can not remember the exact amount but they were private owners hauling back from a rodeo where they did make some money not a large amount but some. I would guess many do not know or do not think they need to know until it effects them?

Of course any trainer would be considered commerical no matter how you slice it so it is just a matter of how long or if ever you get stopped and if you are willing to take the risk?

 

[afoulk]

I don't believe these are new laws but in the past they have not been enforced. I do believe now that they see a way for additional income whether it be in fees or fines. While I think this is all a pain I would much rather pay fees than to pay the fines and then have to pay fee on top of that. I will comply and hope for the best.

Arlene

 

[Boinky]

Ok now i do want to say right off i am NOT a tax expert... but what i don't understand is from a BUSINESS perspective/definition how they can consider a small time person even winning a small money at a show as "making money". That's not making money by a legal defininition. MAKING MONEY is when you factor in all expenses put into that business and what is made OVER that cost. So say you put 10,000 into your horse "business" each year (hay, feed, mileage, tack, Trailer, truck, etc anything related to 0t he business) and you only sell $5K. worth of (lets just say your sell horses) horses. You have NOT made money for that year.. you have infact LOST money. Now say you had $10K into your business and you made even $1K over that. You are now considered a legitimate profitable business and have made a profit for that year (or anything above that $10K mark). I would be willing to bet most smaller trainers don't make much if any profit even. Even if you are showing to "make your animal worth more" well that's all fine and dandy to make your animal worth more, but worth ends up ONLY when that animal is sold. I could say, or even have my animal appraised for 20K but tomorrow he may be worth 1K depending on the market. Unless that animal is SOLD it is basically not truly worth squat. Also your animals and equipment depreciate over the years too so that can also help in the "loss of money" department.

Now to me i would guess MOST show's you would have to have a really darned hefty pay off in winnings to even come close to making profits on your business or to even probably to cover feeding a horse for a year (not many show's..at least in the mini world give you that kind of money). Now... even if every person were to file income taxes on your "business/hobby" I would guess a large portion of us that just show as a hobby would never even come CLOSE to breaking even (hence it would be considered a hobby by the government). I wonder if a ticket could be fought in court in such a manner. The burden of proof i would think would be on the DOT to prove that you were indeed a professional and making money.

Would be an interesting perspective to look into I suppose.

 

[afoulk]

I believe that the govt sees it as receiving money not necessarily making money. I still believe that some states will see this as revenue with the number of larger trucks on the road. My truck is a ford F350 Super Duty 4 wheel drive and the gvw is 11,200 so I believe it is considered commercial just because of the gvw since it is over the 10,001. I sure hope they don't start stopping these vehicles to check but I do believe they will and catch many unsuspecting folks.

 

[Cathy_H]

We are in Kentucky. Lee called & was told the law has been on the books for 23 years but they are starting to enforce it more....If you show or haul someone elses horse even if you are not a business you need the dot #....... They are going to get our $$$'s one way or the other........... Off topic but for the first time now we are being charged for state & county tax on our auto insurance.

 

[Boinky]

Ok now what if your rig is under the weight (like a 2 horse trailer) but your showing and such.. did they mention anything like that Cathy?

I don't want to get nabbed going to shows even around here..LOL

 

[JourneysEnd]

Ok now what if your rig is under the weight (like a 2 horse trailer) but your showing and such.. did they mention anything like that Cathy? I don't want to get nabbed going to shows even around here..LOL

You may want to call your own state's dot office. By Texas law

"Because your rig is less than 26,000 GVWR you will not need a CDL, BUT let me be sure you are looking at the right thing to determine gross combination weight; 90% of the time the DOT looks at the manufacturer’s gross vehicle weight rating of each unit – truck and trailer – so don’t focus on actual weight or licensing but instead on the Manufacturer’s GVWR – you can find this info on the sticker inside the driver’s door of the truck but it sounds like you’ve got that figgered out already."

You should be fine. I drive a 1/2 ton truck with a gvwr of 6,000 and tow a 14' stock trailer with a gvwr of 7,000, so I think I'm okay.

 

[Al B]

If this gets to be a real issue then perhaps EVERYONE pulling a horse trailer of any size should stop at the weigh station and insist on being checked.

 

[txminipinto]

Al, you go first!

 

[Al B]

Uncharacteristically militant of me wasn't it.

 

[joylee123]

[SIZE=12pt]If you are trailering over State lines to attend horse shows, where you may win money, or win a title which could perceivably add value to your business (do you have a farm name or stand a stud?) or are transporting horses and being paid for it, even if it’s just gas mileage. You need DOT numbers.[/SIZE]

If you have DOT numbers you must stop at Ports of Entry. Most times they will wave you through.

If the only time you trailer your horse is to the vet’s or to your friends place to go on a trail drive or to go camping, you do not need DOT numbers. If you are moving your horses to a new place (moving your household) you do not need DOT numbers.

If your truck/ trailer combination weight is over 26,001 pounds you need a CDL, whether you are commercial or not( just trail driving). If you weigh under 26,001 you do not need a CDL.

Remember the GVWR on most trailers is in Kg. So we in the US should times the weight by 2.2 to get the proper weight. My trailer says 6.7 Kg GVWR which is approximately 15,000. My truck is a 2500 Dodge 4 door, short bed Diesel and it weights approx. 9000lbs so my combined weight is approx 24,000 so I do not need a CDL.

Remember the Department of Transportation is Federal and deals in Interstate Commerce. It has nothing to do with whether or not you make a profit in your business. It has to do with whether you make money or your business has benefited as a result of running a combination vehicle across State lines.

Hope this makes it a bit clearer Contact your local State Patrol. They will usually have a Trooper who is knowledgeable on this subject

Joy

 

[afoulk]

Thanks Joy

After many phones calls your explanation is exactly what I have received from the authorities. Yours is much clearer.

Arlene