Draft Style Minis

[disneyhorse]

I was a "draft horse" person before I was a miniature horse person.

I also agree that "draft type" is subjective... 99% of the minis posted here are "old style pony type" minis and NOT "draft type" in my eyes. And although I think the minis on that other "pulling horse" thread are ABSOLUTELY ADORABLE and definitely DO look like the pulling style drafts... those heavy type of draft are NOT what is winning in the show ring. Those burly horses are bred for one thing only... to pull very heavy weights. It is a very small niche (although very very cool to go to see them pull at the fairs) and I don't see many people breeding minis specifically to take them to weight pulls.

As with the minis, the draft horses (all types: Percheron, Belgian, Clydesdale, Shire, etc.) tend towards a more refined, upheaded, leggy horse with lots of springy trot. They call this "hitch type" or "modern" draft horses. So you can see that breeders from small to tall are seeking a flashier horse and leaving the clunkier horses behind. Just sayin' ....

Here are some examples of what is winning in the draft horse today. Put your photos of your "draft type" mini next to them.

Andrea

 

[disneyhorse]

To respond to those saying that "really refined halter horses can't really drive":

You have to have LEGS to get a lot of motion for driving classes. Short, thick legs will lack the angles and flexion needed for the animation and extension that is so pretty for driving, as well as a ground-covering trot.

The old-style minis had the "windup toy" action in the driving classes. Their short, thick necks didn't allow for a natural headset. If they are lucky, they can extend with that "stiff legged" soldier action in front which I don't find very attractive.

Again, just my opinion.

Andrea

 

[Ellen]

[SIZE=12pt]Hmm. I am not sure about all this, I think it is fun to do all the mane rolling and tail braidng and putting our beloved minis in dress. These calsses are very popular in our area, but Why aren't we all working together to add a Foundation class, recognized by the registries for our little stock guys that started it all. Like we have in ponies. I know I own my fair share![/SIZE]

What do you think?

 

[disneyhorse]

Ellen...

Part of the problem is that there IS no "set type" in the miniatures. There is extra stocky and extra refined and everything in-between.

For halter, the judges are just going to pick the most "modern, horse-like" horses they can that still have good solid conformation.

Nothing prevents the old-style minis from showing in Western Pleasure driving, driving/inhand obstacle, hunter, showmanship, liberty, color, costume, and heck MOST classes... and they can and DO win at the National level!

The mini shows are SO well attended and there are already SO many classes that I just can't see adding more. The great thing about minis is that every type of mini has something they can excel in!

Andrea

 

[~Lisa~]

For halter, the judges are just going to pick the most "modern, horse-like" horses they can that still have good solid conformation.
Andrea

I have to disagree a bit. A lot depends on the judges themselves. Judges who breed and show ponies tend to pick the more "pony" type judges that breed and show minis tend to pick the type they breed for. There are in many areas often many different "types" that are correct enough to win the class depending on the "type" the judge is looking for.

I have seen some not so extreme minis do well they are correct and well balanced and some judges do not prefer the extreme type

Showing is a game. Sometimes it is a matter of knowing your judges- knowing what they like and dont like and choosing your shows accordingly

 

[Shari]

.
As with the minis, the draft horses (all types: Percheron, Belgian, Clydesdale, Shire, etc.) tend towards a more refined, upheaded, leggy horse with lots of springy trot. They call this "hitch type" or "modern" draft horses. So you can see that breeders from small to tall are seeking a flashier horse and leaving the clunkier horses behind. Just sayin' ....

Here are some examples of what is winning in the draft horse today. Put your photos of your "draft type" mini next to them.

Andrea

See now, I don't concider those Draft horses. Pretty show horses yes but not something I would want to work a field with. When I think of Draft horses I think Traditional Draft horse with a conformation and temperament, built to work a day in the field or logging.

Like

http://www.ruralheritage.com/brabant/index.htm

or

http://www.suffolkpunch.com/

Or the photos I took at a local show, will have to dig them up but they look nothing like those photos.

Am more of a traditional type of horse person.

 

[disneyhorse]

See now, I don't concider those Draft horses. Pretty show horses yes but not something I would want to work a field with. When I think of Draft horses I think Traditional Draft horse with a conformation and temperament, built to work a day in the field or logging.
Or the photos I took at a local show, will have to dig them up but they look nothing like those photos.

Am more of a traditional type of horse person.

Yes, but see we ARE talking about SHOW HORSES not farm/field horses. You can work your fields with whatever minis you want (but I think most people use the larger halflingers for that ... but SHOW horses should be flashy.

Minis were not necessarily MADE for plowing, and we don't have coal mines around here anymore. We have pretty minis, and we have fancy driving minis. And we have minis of all shapes and sizes that are great for kids and can do showmanship, obstacle, wear silly costumes, and such. I think there are more than enough classes already for the minis...

Andrea

 

[Shari]

I loved going to the Draft horse and Ox pulls in NE. Some took their every day working Drafts and showed them on the weekend at the local fairs. There was one guy that would bring his working team down from Canada every year, loved those Drafts and he was a wonder to watch him work with his horses. So there were working Drafts being shown.

The Oregon state fair has classes for work drafts, love going to that one. Wish there were more over here on this side of the country. And I guess depends where in the country where one lives, to what kinds of Drafts you see at shows.

Never saw the Show only Drafts.

 

[MindyLee]

For halter, the judges are just going to pick the most "modern, horse-like" horses they can that still have good solid conformation.
Andrea

I have to disagree a bit. A lot depends on the judges themselves. Judges who breed and show ponies tend to pick the more "pony" type judges that breed and show minis tend to pick the type they breed for. There are in many areas often many different "types" that are correct enough to win the class depending on the "type" the judge is looking for.

I have seen some not so extreme minis do well they are correct and well balanced and some judges do not prefer the extreme type

Showing is a game. Sometimes it is a matter of knowing your judges- knowing what they like and dont like and choosing your shows accordingly

THAT'S WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT!!! I SOOOOOO AGREE WITH THIS!

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I haven't seen a mini, except for that one posted here that looks like a gypsy vanner, that really look like draft horses. But I've also not seen a mini that I thought looked just like an arabian although people are always describing their horses that way.

But on the subject of feather alone, I have a mare that has the longest feather I've seen on a mini. Most of it is 4" long, but in the winter I've measured some at 7". The feather covers her entire hooves and drags the ground in winter. She also has a double mane. The long hairs start right at the bottom of her cannon bone an go down from there. But the rest of her just looks like an average boned mini. She's 34" tall and mostly leg. She's 28 this year.

 

[Ellen]

I have to agree with the comment made about the older style minis at the Nationals. Pony judges will not place them. But, I am not faulting them, I am pony person as well. But I still love my Buckeroo son. He is gorgeous, but can he compete with a shetland? No. Could he do well in a class of his own, yes.

All I am saying is we need to find a place for the quality minis that started it all. They still have it, even though there are different types, colors and styles.

But I have to say draft classes are fun, but we have got to class minis as minis not draft, QH, Arab, Morgan........ What do you think?

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Yes I think we can't seperate it by types, that would be very subjective and would take a long time, thats why I think we need foundation classes.

I personally haven't see that many draft type minis to add necessary draft classes, perhaps if we want it to seperate by type it would fit more in the lines of stock type. I have only seen 1 true looking draft mini that showed at Nationals last year that we have been told was a belgian that just didn't grow up and he looks like a mini belgian. That horse was awesome.

Like what Lisa has said its what judges like and more and more judges are into the ponys, so something needs to change, either set up a standard on what we need to breed for or change the way we show our minis. Think about it this way their are more pony judges out there, take appaloosas for example, there are no appies in ponys, now do you think a judge that is for ponys will place that appy higher over the ponys if it deserves it, a good judge yes, but most of them won't even in a obstacle class I gurantee it.

 

[Ellen]

JMS- This was my original reason for posting. We need a foundation class and standards need to be set. I think that credit needs to be given to the original stockier build that started it all. Lets face it, they don't get looked at like they should. Local shows, yes......But at area shows and nationals I tend to think they get overlooked and they deserve a foundation class. Similar to the pony world.

 

[Katiean]

I don't know about once a horse is shown in that devision (draft) it could never be shown in any other devision. I mean it's like trying a horse in country pleasure and then trying it in single pleasure. I wouldn't want to be locked into a show devision like that. I do have a 34" QH type. She has a wide chest and a butt that can get her and her load up that hill. She is a really cool mare because nothing bugs her when she is driving. I have a buckboard wagon with shafts. I don't have a pole for it. But, I would love to get her a draft harness to go with the wagon and I would love to be able to show her with the wagon.

 

[JWC sr.]

My thinking on the aspect of only being able to show in this division and not switch would be that then there would be little if any cross over entries. Maybe the "ever" part would be for a year to year thing or something.

After all the entire reason for the new division would be to create a place where the stockier type horses could and would excel. Personally I like the connotation of Quarter style or something like that as versus "Draft" merely from a marketing standpoint.

But to be honest if this can get done then whatever they want to call it is fine. The main thing is to increase the number of people that are capable of using the horse they love in specific classes catering to what was the norm. several years ago and the breed has been rapidly and increasingly moving away from each year. Facts is that the more people involved the better for each registry and the breed in general.

My feeble thoughts anyway,

 

[miniblessingsfarm]

I am so glad to see this thread! I have a barn full of minis that are all beautiful to me! Unfortunately, none of them would do well at halter in an AMHA show because they are not refined enough (not "arab-looking"). I agree with everyone who would like to see separate classes available for the "arab-type" and the "stock horse" type (or "draft" type) miniatures. It would cetainly level the playing field as well as alllow many more horses to be competetive. And can you imagine the extra revenue that would be generated for the clubs/miniature horse organizations by the addition of a whole new division at the mini shows?!? Many of the other breed organizations have divisions available at their respective shows that allow for differences in horse "style." A Hunter horse is different from a Western Pleasure horse is different from a Reining horse, etc. If other breed organizations can make allowances for the differences in their respective breeds, why can't the Miniature Horse breed organizations follow suit? The other breed organizations seem to embrace the differences in horse types. Some mini owners are sometimes made to feel that their horses aren't as good as the more refined or "arab" like minis even though their minis may be well-bred, have correct conformation, have wonderful ability or training.

I also wanted to add that there are fads in everything---including horses. Years ago, the smaller, stockier Quarter Horse was very popular. Now, everyone wants a taller, more elegant looking Quarter Horse that almost looks like a Thoroughbred. The same is true of the Miniature Horse industry. I would imagine that once the "newness" has worn off of the super-refined, "arab-type" minis, the stockier minis will come back into favor, or at least have a legitimate chance in the show ring. (I do NOT mean any disrespect to the "arab type" minis or their breeders!)

I hope that we will all see a day when ANY Miniature Horse of correct conformation, ability, temperment, training and condition will have an equal chance in the show ring.

Debbi

 

[JMS Miniatures]

This is for AMHR only, but this is my small idea on what I want foundation classes to be like. I have had mix responses. Those who want to show the R minis like it but those who don't want to see change don't.

AMHR Foundation Miniature Horse:

A miniature horse that does not have any ASPC papered horses in its background going back 4 generations. This does exlcude hardshipped horses. If you miniature horse is eligible for Foundation Certification you can send the papers to AMHR office and receive a foundation seal.

You can choose to show that horse in Open or Foundation classes but you cannot crossenter at shows. However classes that don't offer Foundation ie: halter obstacle, hunter, liberty, etc... you may show in.

Types of classes offered:

Foundation Miniature Halter Stallions, U

Foundation Miniature Halter Stallions, O

Foundation Miniature Halter Geldings, U

Foundation Miniature Halter Geldings, O

Foundation Miniature Halter Mares, U

Foundation Miniature Halter Mares, O

Foundation Miniature Pleasure Driving, U

Foundation Miniature Pleasure Driving, O

Foundation Miniature Country Pleasure Driving, U

Foundation Miniature Country Pleasure Driving, O

Foundation Miniature Western CPD, U

Foundation Miniature Western CPD, O

Foundation Miniature Versatility, U

Foundation Miniature Versatility, O

I have included our 2 main areas of interest halter and driving. I have also included versatility cause IMO this is a important class to show how versatile our minis can be and Foundation should have a versatility class. If you show in Foundation that does not mean you cannot show in the other performance classes you just cannot crossenter into open halter/driving at the same show. I think it should just be divided between under and over until it gains some interest then maybe divide it by different heights. If it does get popular maybe add in more extra classes. I know how Local shows are already stressed out for time so for right now it should not be required but maybe required for Area shows and Nationals.

Anyways this is just my thoughts, I would like to hear comments.

 

[Julie/Azariah]

From a show exhibitor standpoint and show organizer standpoint...

The addition of more classes is a a bit scary.

Regionals was SO pleasant this year because a day was added, we were not up all night after showing til midnight, prepping our horses for the next day.

We got a chance to get to know our "neighbors", had some time to relax and socialize a bit, even playing something I never heard of "Corn Bag Ball" ( I think that was from the Kentucky FolK) and you shoulda heard the hooting and hollering going on behind the barns as the competition got pretty intense

If a whole new show division is added, it may put us right back in the same boat we were before. We could be back at a crazy schedule, but now for 4 days... then one+ week of Worlds or Nationals... adds up to a long time being away from the farm and extra money for the trip.

If new divisions were added for foundation stock then it sure would be nice for the exhibitor to have the foundation show classes / performance classes / and "modern" type classes, in that order or flip flopped. That way if you are type specific you can attend 2/3 of the time (if that makes sense)

BUT, THEN the performance people will be going crazy because all of the performance classes (to include both types/divisions) would be together and not interspersed with the halter classes.

And ALL the halter classes would be back to back... INSANE!

THAT would probably not work.

Like I said in a previous post, the addition of another division to be shown would take A LOT of TIME to figure out, and then implement. There would have to be someone TOTALLY dedicated to this concept to run with it. And then you would have to get it passed by the registries, which means you need to attend annual meetings. It will take a LOT of dedication from A LOT of people.

I am not FOR or AGAINST this thought. I have just been tossing it around and around and WOW, it would take a lot to get it rolling.

Miniature horses, modern or foundation, should bring joy to their owners and folks they come in contact with, that is what they are all about. Some of us breed and raise them, some of us show them, some of us use them for therapy purposes and service work, some of us drive them for pleasure and some of us just like to sit on the front porch and watch them out in the field. (And SOME OF US like to do all of it!!!)

I personally am MAXED out between the farm, the family and trying to get out and show. Maybe there is someone out there that has the time and the knowledge to do something like this. Ideas usually come easily to most of us, but getting down and taking care of the nitty gritty... well that is when the numbers thin out.

I certainly am not saying it can't or shouldn't be done, just putting my honest thoughts out. There is much more to it than just "adding a new division"