Driving question...

[Dontworrybeappy]

Yesterday we took ol' loveable Appy to his first driving show - He did very well in all 3 classes EXCEPT when it came to backing up!

He won the one class where we weren't asked to back up!

I am the first to admit that I haven't backed him up all that often in harness, hadn't really thought about it except if we HAD to back to get out of a corner or something.

He is SO willing and ready to do anything I ask (usually!

: ) that I don't think we'll have too much trouble working on backing, although I am sure it's harder to teach a horse to back in harness with blinders keeping them from seeing backwards, and with asking them to back "into" the cart behind them.

The judge at the show even came up to us later in the parking lot and told us that Appy had EVERY class he was in "won" until he didn't back up... I thought that was pretty cool!

So? How do you driving whizzes teach a horse to back up in the cart? Any tips that I may not of thought of, other than practice practice practice?

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[FairytailGlennMinis]

Breeching helps SO much with getting minis to back! Think about how the weight while pulling is put against the breast collar...well that doesn't work pushing backwards so the weight pulls on the saddle and their back instead. With breeching, the hind pushes into it and takes the weight. Start with backing up while ground driving without the cart and just one step at a time. Then do it ground driving with the cart. Take it in little pieces and soon he will backing like a pro.

-Amy

 

[D.M. Minis]

start them backing down hill it makes it easy for them. I just start to get the to take one or two steps then move on to somthing and come back and do alittle more may be 3 or 4 steps.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Ditto PocketPonies. Also, the first couple times you ask him to back the cart without breeching, do it on a hill and on firm ground so it is easy for him. Congratulations on doing so well in your classes! Pictures? What kind of show was it?

Leia

 

[_minihorses4ever_]

I would first get him backing well on the ground; in a halter then in harness.

But everyone else pretty much said it. Make sure you take it at his pace! Appy is such a smart little guy, I am sure he will figure it out in no time.

 

[susanne]

Here's a question I've had for awhile...

We want them to back willingly, yet if we use backing as a disciplinary measure, how can we then expect them to consider it a good thing and not punishment?

For in-hand backing (and off lead, as well), I've tried to make backing into a game for which he is rewarded. So far, he backs very well in ground driving, but of course that's not the same as when put to cart.

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

Here's a question I've had for awhile...

We want them to back willingly, yet if we use backing as a disciplinary measure, how can we then expect them to consider it a good thing and not punishment?

For in-hand backing (and off lead, as well), I've tried to make backing into a game for which he is rewarded. So far, he backs very well in ground driving, but of course that's not the same as when put to cart.

That's a seperate question, right? I haven't seen anything in this thread about backing up as a punishment!?

 

[kaykay]

im really new to the whole driving thing. i have been to a lot of clinics and working with arlene foulk now on training crunch. One thing they all have said is to teach backing last. The most important thing is that a driving horse always move forward. Ive also heard various trainers say when backing only ask for a couple steps. It doesnt need to be 10.

 

[horsefeather]

I agree with the above advice. We teach ours the word 'back' when they are very young. It seems a bit easier to use the same word (they DO recognize it) when we start backing in cart. We make sure they understand and do a good job with backing while still ground driving, then proceed to cart.

Susanne, I have wondered the same thing, but it seems to work for us. However, when we use the backing as a 'punishment' we walk into them while backing with the halter at a quick pace. I do not use the word 'back' while doing this. They seem to know the difference. When I am 'punishing' (don't like to use that word) the gelding I am working with now when I walk into him he gets kinda bug eyed. He knows he has not done what I asked of him. However, when I calmly ask him to back, he does a terrific job and doesn't get all bug eyed.

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Pam

 

[MiLo Minis]

The most important thing to remember and the one that a lot of people don't seem to realize is that backing is a forward movement. Your horse needs to be on the bit, then you ask for forward motion and use an unyielding (even firmer than for a halt) hand so that he comes up against the bit, tucks throwing his weight onto his haunches and backs away from the bit. That is why it is so important to keep your horse standing square and ready to move off when in the lineup. It can be very difficult if there are a lot of horses in the class but in that case you can actually allow him a half step forward and then back away so that he comes on the bit.

The reason you leave backing to the last to teach a harness horse is so that he doesn't attempt to use it as an evasion during his early training. An uncontrolled backing horse in harness is dangerous.

You should never use backing as a punishment in harness. I don't believe in training by punishment at all but it is definitely not a good idea to do it in harness.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

The most important thing to remember and the one that a lot of people don't seem to realize is that backing is a forward movement. Your horse needs to be on the bit, then you ask for forward motion and use an unyielding (even firmer than for a halt) hand so that he comes up against the bit, tucks throwing his weight onto his haunches and backs away from the bit.

Milo, you are of course correct but the reason I always hesitate to bring this up is because it is so easily misunderstood on an internet forum. It's a hard concept to describe! For instance it sounds to me like you are supposed to signal your horse to walk on, then refuse to allow them to go forward until they get so desperate to release the pressure that they "throw their weight onto their haunches" and backpeddle to get away. Now I know this isn't what you are saying but it could sound like that and I'm afraid it might result in a bad case of rearing and even flipping over if misapplied! You aren't strictly asking for forward motion at all, you are asking the horse to be forward in the bridle which is something else entirely. Their feet should never move forward, nor should they sway forward and then back up. It is more precisely a motion involving forwardness, not a "forward motion" as layman would understand it. (You know, "going forward?"

: )

I think sometimes it is simpler to describe that the back should be a clear diagonal gait, just like going forward. The front and opposite rear hooves should lift cleanly and move back in diagonal pairs, with the neck lowered and back raised to push back into the harness. The horse should show submission to the bit although not fear of it and look relaxed and happy to move back. He should stop as soon as you release the cue.

Again, just to avoid misunderstandings- I agree with you Milo. I know what you mean! I'm just rephrasing in hopes of avoiding misinterpretations.

The reason you leave backing to the last to teach a harness horse is so that he doesn't attempt to use it as an evasion during his early training. An uncontrolled backing horse in harness is dangerous.

Exactly.

:

Susanne, there is a difference in the two kinds of backing. Backing a naughty horse in hand by using offended body language is pushing them out of your space and making them give ground to you, which reinforces your position as the "lead mare."

: The punishment is being chased down the pecking order not the actual act of backing up. You use a completely different set of body language and a verbal cue to train the backup and the horses know it isn't at all the same thing. One is "Get out of my way any way you can!" and the other is "Please step back now. Again. Good boy."

In riding I will sometimes use a backup as a reprimand. Only on a horse who is solid on all their basic commands, and only when they are (for instance) falling apart on their trot to canter transitions, but I use it. I will stop them gently but firmly, wait half a heartbeat, then ask firmly for a backup of a few steps. Then I stop and let them think about it for a moment and ask again for the transition. The backing, if done properly without anger or yanking or excessive speed, helps to collect their hindquarters under them and round their backs up as well as letting them know they need to pay attention and not just rush blindly forward. But when I started driving I quickly decided it wasn't fair whether or not they'd been naughty to ask the horse to try and suddenly stop all the weight of the cart, shove it backwards, and then go sharply forwards again. It would be more likely to damage and stress the horse's body than produce any improvement in rounding, and to avoid that it would have to be done so gradually that they wouldn't realize the two events were related anyway. Later I learned about the evasion thing but I never allow my horses to back off the bit anyway. Everything is, as Milo said, forward! LOL

The one time I did finally use a driven backup as a punishment was when I got sick and tired of Kody's new habit of breaking from a lengthened walk to a trot. He knew better but got away with it the first few times and it showed signs of becoming a habit. I finally lost my temper, stopped him abruptly and asked for a back with my hands just stiff enough to let him know he was in trouble and it was not a polite request. You know, he stopped breaking right away! LOL. It wasn't that the backup was an awful punishment, just that it finally got through to him that he'd done something wrong and rushing forward was not what I was asking for.

Disclaimer: I never, ever yank on my horses' mouths when asking for a back like this. I ask for a whoa in a stern voice, then say "back, back, back" sharply for each of about three steps. My hands are firmer than usual on the reins so instead of a soft elastic squeezing I am assertively requesting a backup NOW, but if I'm doing things right I never become hard-handed; I just take some of the give out of my wrists and fingers. If the horse opens their mouth in protest you are doing something wrong. :nono:

That said, backing up should generally never be used as punishment in driving. Bad idea!

Leia

Edited repeatedly for newly-discovered typos

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[sassy1]

I would think about putting either breeching on him or false breeching on your cart, until he has a good handle on the concept of the word "back". (Or maybe work him at home in breeching and use a false breeching at shows?) An inexperienced horse may have trouble in an arena if the only means of backing the vehicle is the harness saddle.

I completely agree with the other posters regarding the horse needing to be on the bit before asking for the back.

I was always taught to teach the horse to back in a vehicle by facing them into a wall, so that their natural inclination when asked for "any" type of movement is to go back

:

Good Luck with him - he sounds like he has heaps of potential!

 

[MiLo Minis]

"Again, just to avoid misunderstandings- I agree with you Milo. I know what you mean! I'm just rephrasing in hopes of avoiding misinterpretations.

"

Thanks for clarifying for me! I understand what you mean - that people quite often misunderstand.

No offense taken. I use the command "back" when I ask for it to help the horse understand what it is I am asking. He already knows that command from previous groundwork. I realize that the horse shouldn't actually go forward and a very thoroughly well trained and very fit horse can do it without any actual forward motion but for the average Mini in the ring it is sometimes necessary to allow that weight to go forward and then back to get the cart moving just slightly enough that it makes it easier for him - sort of like getting it unstuck - when he has been standing motionless in lineup. If your horse is not yet physically capable of doing the move correctly you have to make it as easy as possible for him while still asking him correctly so that he can eventually develop the strength to do it. Backing in harness is the most difficult movement we ask of the horse and requires the most strength and self balance of any movement - it can take several years of consistant work for the horse to develop the strength necessary to do it correctly.

One way you can help your horse is to keep him on the bit and alert and ready for movement when you get in lineup. I see so many people that just relax and let the horse loll about when they are waiting for their backup. They are asking for difficulties.

 

[horsefeather]

Thanks for the clarification hobbyhorse23. I've actually only been driving minis for about 8 or 9 years (still consider myself an amatuer) and wasn't 'getting' what Milo Minis was saying. Also, thanks for explaining my poor usage of 'punishment.' As I stated, I don't like to use that word. Maybe I should have used 'to correct something.' I also agree to NEVER use backing as a correction while in a cart! :no: :no: We do a tremendous amount of ground driving and even after hooking to the cart still walk with cart before getting in. We try to work out any and all problems before putting the cart to the horse. It's much easier to correct a problem without the cart attached.

Pam

 

[susanne]

Hi Karen,

Sorry...I didn't mean to hijack your thread, and i was certainly NOT suggesting that this had anything to do with your question. Just one of those thoughts that pop into my head when I've been working all night on a design project.

And in answer to my own question and to the responses, I guess that's what I've been doing...using different body languagee, as he definitely knows the difference...but I had to ponder nonetheless.

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

Just to thank you all for your advice and suggestions! I had given Appy (and myself) a couple days off after the show, went out today and worked him, then ground drove him and started working on backing - just for 5 or 10 minutes, I'd ask him to back, then run forward and give him some sunflower seeds.

Go forward, stop, wait, back up, get seeds! We repeated this several times, and when I finished, he was backing several steps at a time, just on voice with no rein pressure!

All he was wearing was a surcingle and a driving bridle, we'll repeat this plan each time we work him and move into the cart with the breeching and later without (although I usually do use it!)

so next show, watch out!

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