For minihoofbeats updated

[runamuk]

ok I will go ahead and toss these photos out there for you to comment on........good, bad, ugly all opinions welcome :bgrin I already know the pic's stink....LOL best I could put together at the moment

:

I am just curious to see HOW various people describe the head and WHAT they see.

Anyone can play I just am curious as to some of the terminology used.

1 How do you describe this head?

2 What traits do you see?

3 yr old

yearling

2 days old

ok first to answer a few of you yes same horse all three shots. Age and angles can be decieving. I had alot of input on this horse and in the end I went with my gut and he was sold as a pet.

here is a full body shot

and for more info he was only 24.5 at top of withers at 3 years of age.

continue commenting.

 

[Reijel's Mom]

I wasn't sure where you were going with this because I saw the other thread after I looked at this. Funny thing was, 2 things flashed in my mind when I looked at those pics without any real study - and those 2 things were "huh, kinda look like little Arabs" and then "oh, they kinda look dwarfy".

No expert, not a shower, and not a breeder. Just been around horses (mostly big), and those are the 2 things that flashed into my head.

 

[cowgurl_up]

Ok, I'll play!!!

In the 2 day old picture, I see a bulged forehead and a dishy look (which could look that way more because of the bulge?)

In the yearling picture, I see a wide forehead with big eyes, tiny ears (probably caused by the ton of forelock!

: ), a slighly dished face that goes down into a pretty, small nose and mouth.

In the 3 yr old picture, I again see a wide forehead, tiny ears (again because of his ton of forelock!) and a pretty looking little nose and mouth!

That's about all I see!

 

[Sterling]

3 yr. old -- I see a wide forhead from eye to eye going across, with a short length tapering down to a tiny muzzle.

yearling -- I see a flat forehead...(can't make it out too much what's under the forlock) with a slight dishyness to the face.

2 day old --That baby is just too precious!!! I see a baby dome with a straight face.

I love the tippy ears in all of these horses...but oh man that baby....

: !!!!

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Hmm well that horse is not what I would call araby and is exactly what I would call a "recessive" horse or one that has a few red flags to me about Dwarf characteristics. I know many people think it is very black or white a dwarf or not a dwarf I personally have a different opinion.

What sticks out the most to me is his Nostril placement, the bulge in the forhead and the length/shape of the front of the head

again just my opinion so please no offense meant to the horse

:

All of that said he is cute but surely gelding material in my eyes and that is just judging on his head alone

I am assuming perhaps incorrectly this is the same horse in all pictures

 

[shelia]

I must not be very good at judging a horse because I see a beautiful face on all three! I guess this subject is very informative for me. That is the type of heads that I wanted! I have seen many dwarf pics and a couple of dwarves or what I thought had dwarf characteristics and i just don't see it in these pics. I know I am definantly not an expert and hope to learn something here. The babies head is a little domey but they flatten out as they get older.

Shelia

 

[runamuk]

This is great keep it coming I promise to give more info eventually. No fear of hurt feelings here :bgrin I put out there so we all can learn.

 

[kaykay]

Yikes im sorry! i misunderstood I thought they wanted more head shots of a horse all ages

 

[mininik]

runamuk, is that the same horse in all three photos? I see signs of dwarfism in the high placed nostrils and domed forehead and would not breed this horse just based upon what I see here. I do not see dishy, or refined. Does he have an underbite?

 

[nootka]

Hard to tell with these photos, but the yearling photo is the one that makes me pause. Add to that the height as well as leg length to body length proportions being off and I think you were very wise in your decision, Rori.

My little palomino filly looked much like him, not quite as "cute" a head, and she also had a fairly extreme underbite. She was 30" though, and heavy boned for her height.

Like Lisa, I think there are some that people don't consider actual dwarfs but they have some features that tell me there's something waiting to show up in a more extreme form. I, though, think they "are" dwarfs, just like someone can't be just a little bit pregnant, you either are or you aren't.

I just don't have the heart to chance it, so I try to be very safe.

I could be very wrong, but so far, I don't see any dwarf traits in my herd, and if I did, or I got a dwarf, I would not risk another breeding, no matter if it were my most famous, my most loved mare or stallion that did the producing of the dwarf.

I've been observing herds of minis w/dwarfs in them for nearly 20 years, now, though have only had minis for 12 years. 20 years ago, though, noone really tried to hide them, so I got a lot more of an education then. They gladly showed me half-siblings, sires, dams and offspring of horses and I could get a feel for the traits that were coming out in more extreme form to create the malformations which added up to actual dwarf births.

Thanks for sharing, Rori!

I have photos of my filly somewhere, too, though I can't access them right now, I am fine to share them to show a dwarfy head that people thought was extreme or cute, but really just added up to a trait that meant she should not be bred. Mind you I was offered $4000 for her at one time, but turned it down b/c her bite went off. I am glad I did. I ended up selling her for $500 as a pet only.

Liz

 

[rabbitsfizz]

You can add me to the list of people who do not think dwarfism, any kind of dwarfism, is going to be found to be cut and dried- I too think it is going to be a polygenic thing with far more than people think to it.

I do not see anything in any of the head shots to put up red flags for me- a pretty pony, that is all.

The full body shot gives me pause- I am not at all sure of the whole picture, it doe snot look "right" to me and I trust Rori's judgement and she is the one who was actually looking at the horse and thinking something was not right- standing and watching your horse- nothing to beat that really, is there??

So no, no obvious dwarfism but basically if the breeder/owner is not happy I would go with that every time, over "informed" opinions.

If he had looked like the whole picture as a yearling I would have given him another year to see but to look like that, and be that height at three- I am pretty sure you were right in your "call".

I would love to see him at six, though, gelded and plump from being out in a field somewhere, and compare the pictures.

Oh, and I do see what you say about the nostrils but, form the pictures we have, I have to say I have seen big horses with nostrils like that and no chance of dwarfism.

 

[nootka]

For the record, I have seen that Friesian horses do have some instance of dwarfism and I have somewhere here a photo of a full-sized horse that had dwarfism, showed its head, which is similar to many of the blocky-headed type minimal dwarfs I often see.

That said, yes, it is an individual breeder's need to cull from their herd (and that does not mean anything other than to NOT use it to breed) any that have possible genetic defects. My little mare was arbitrary, but really, there are many who would breed some that are really not good candidates.

Also, think of how many very well shaped minis there are out there that we have to choose from. I dont' care who or what it is, or what the excuse is, we have no business creating animals that will be in pain or die suffering because we are too caught up in our own purpose to see the writing on the wall.

Liz M.

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

here's a tracing of an actual arabian mare who was rather heavily advertised as having the "most perfect head"

: She looks even worse in the real photo, but as I don't own her, I won't post that. This is an older mare who's had several foals. If she were a mini, seems she'd be a severe dwarf!

Wish I knew what happened to the other thread - it was very informative and interesting and disappeared while I was reading page 10! Too bad that much good, honest information just went away!

 

[kaykay]

Just an fyi when my vet was here last time he told me of a big horse farm that has had 2 dwarfs born there. One died and one is still living. He said they very much look like a miniature horse dwarf. I was shocked! He said it happens on big horse farms a lot more then people know.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Karen I think that the Arab mare is an isolated case- I know of her and I have to say I would not have bred her and I think her head is quite horrid, but that aside, her foals are ALL "normal" ie without her head deformity.

I do think, in her case, it was a straightforward deformity of the head.

Years ago (everything is when you are old, unfortunately!!) I had a Native Shetland mare who had a deformity of the head- one side of her head looked as if it had been hit with a plank, the other side was normal.

So from one side you had a very "Araby" head (except no-one could disguise her dear sweet HUGE nose!!) and from the other side you had a furry Hippo!!

Quite weird but everything else about her was normal, and she had normal foals- I am not sure I would breed her today, but forty years ago we did not know so much and we did not have the Internet to help us, so these animals were bred.

It is unfortunate that we will continue to breed these animals even after we have a test for dwarfism- we just know we will, don't we??

There are still people that breed QH with HYPP and who defend it to the last.

There are still people who will take a chance on LWO X LWO.

There will still be people who breed known dwarfs.

Such is the way of mankind.

 

[Jill]

Karen --

I know what arabian mare that you are thinking of and pictured in silhouette, and I also think she has a deformity. Her head is just way to extreme and does not look "healthy" or natural.

Jill

 

[Danielle_E.]

runamuk, is that the same horse in all three photos? I see signs of dwarfism in the high placed nostrils and domed forehead and would not breed this horse just based upon what I see here. I do not see dishy, or refined. Does he have an underbite?

I agree with alot of the above observation. My first thought was does this horse have problems with his mouth (teeth) but what truly drew my eye in 2 of the pics was a very wide forehead and also the nostril placement.

 

[runamuk]

Actually, his bite was always dead on. And many people felt he was just small. There was always something about him that made me pause. His only blatant issue was that his hooves would grow at rapid speed and curl under. No he never foundered but 8 weeks after a trim he would look as if he had foundered severely. I admit I went back and forth for a long time as he was never a horse that leapt out and screamed DWARF....but something was definately off. In my opinion based on what I know from human dwarfism and rabbit dwarfism I am certain he was a carrier of a dwarf gene. In rabbits it is a neccessary gene to keep the tiny rabbits tiny

: so I had plenty of experience in working with dwarfism. The other thing for me was that he hit 24.5 inches at a year and then stayed there. He was 16-17 at birth. He also had very tiny ears something I have seen on many minimal dwarf horses. And as several noticed his nostril size and placement was not quite right.

Anyway I hope this helps others to see some of the signs that often are very slight to not visible unless you are looking for them.

And I also know that mare in sihlouette and have always questioned her. Friesens do have dwarfism, as do Welsh in welsh I have actually seen a hydracephalus foal and the dam was one of those more extreme looking mares, she was absolutely gorgeous but again in light of the horrid turn her foaling took I believe some signs were there had anyone thought to look. Of course at that time none of the people involved had heard of dwarfism in horses other than mini's.

 

[disneyhorse]

That Arabian mare (posted in silhouette) had an injury which resulted in that head shape. The people who showed/promoted her used it as a marketing trick. MOST arabs who show don't look like that.

Andrea

 

[MeadowRidge Farm]

I know that mare in the silhouette. My honest opinion of her is she look alot worst in real life. I would never breed that mare. She was talked about alot on other forums as well. Corinne