For minihoofbeats updated

[Shari]

I have see two older offspring by that Arab mare and they are just as deformed as she is, so she is passing it on. :no:

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

That Arabian mare (posted in silhouette) had an injury which resulted in that head shape. The people who showed/promoted her used it as a marketing trick. MOST arabs who show don't look like that.

Andrea

Yes, I know... that was kinda my point!

:

Here are two of mine...

My stallion Khornerstone KpM (by Khemosabi++++//):

and one of our mares (a classic head winner BTW)

TA Sarrinade:

These two (aside from their own wins in limited showing) between them they produced a National Top Ten mare (Sporthorse in hand)!

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Now now you made a mistake remember the gray one is mine.....

: my early christmas present

 

[Buckskin gal]

I truly hope we never produce a dwarf. :no: I just feel sorry for them. I wish there was a way to convince all breeders that it is so very undesirable. I know a woman who spent a good sum of money for a mare that was bred to a very well known stallion and she had a horrible looking dwarf foal, born dead. Her vet told her to go ahead and breed her again just use a different stallion. She had also bought a colt, at the same time as this mare, that was sired by the same stallion and he also has dwarf characteristics and now she is using him for breeding! Just makes me sick that this goes on but some people can not be educated. This is a person who has had horses for years but only minis in the last few years. I think she feels she paid a high price for these minis from a well known breeder and now feels she is going to get her money back one way or another; but then if a vet doesn't discourage her from using things that produce dwarfs or has dwarf characteristics I would only guess she thinks it is all justified. I think our registerys need to do a lot more about not allowing minis that have dwarf charateristics to be registered. So it goes

Mary

 

[crponies]

I never looked that closely at your little guy before, but I think I do see now what you all are concerned about. I had no idea who that Arabian was but did some searching and found out I think. If you think it may be just the angle of that photo, it's not! I found a video of her on YouTube. She just does not look right but she appears to be comfortable.

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

Now now you made a mistake remember the gray one is mine.....

: my early christmas present

You'll have to go through my hubby first - Sarri is his favorite (big) mare! :bgrin

 

[Margo_C-T]

Though I would not for one MOMENT doubt the decision of the pictured horse's owner(the Mini, not the weird-looking Arabian mare that was tangentially brought in)--I have to say that FROM THE PHOTOS OFFERED, I would not have made the judgements some of you did--I simply do NOT see any concrete indication of some of the traits alluded to by some others. That said, in the full standing shot, I do see some 'indication' that he might not be what I would use for breeding--but again,mostly not what I saw others mentioning. I think you need to have more than a few casual photos, all taken at various angles(which simply do not give the true 'picture' of proportion, balance, and the like)....

(Gotta say,too, that I felt kind of foolish when, after spending considerable time crafting a post on the 'other' thread(I always give a lot of thought to what I want to say, and how to say it, especially on serious subjects)-that it promptly disappeared....I was defrosting my upright freezer; went to tend to it after actually posting my reply, and when I came back to see what else had been said in that interesting(and I'm sure, educational and helpful-in-learning, to many!) thread--POOF! it was gone!) I 'feel for' the young lady(I presume, as I have NO knowledge at ALL about the OP) who got her feelings hurt, and can even sort of understand why she did--but it does seem to me that people need to learn that there are as many shades of opinion--AND levels of knowledge, for that matter!-here as there are fish in the sea-and if you are a thinking adult, you understand that you are going to 'get' the full range of them on nearly ANY thought-provoking subject--and, you learn which ones come from a serious and knowledgable poster(even if it's one with whom you vehemently disagree), and which probably do not. It bothers me to see all that valuable interaction lost. I do fully understand, and respect the fact, that it it the forum owner's/moderators' call, however.

Margo

 

[runamuk]

I agree Margo that we need to have these conversations AND we can all learn from them. I found that thread to be interesting and was also saddened to see it disappear. If we can refrain from pointing fingers and naming names it might work better. I feel no need to call out the bloodlines publicly but studying horses that show dwarf or other minimal traits can be a great tool to evaluate all miniature horses and possibly begin to see some common characteristics that are an indication of what to avoid.

I also agree that a handful of photos is hard to judge from, but it is also interesting to see multiple photos of various ages and angles. I owned the above horse from birth so had the advantage of seeing him from every angle.......and he always made me pause and scratch my head.

Regarding vets and some people coming in from big horses. I can honestly say in the beginning all miniatures looked dwarfy to me mainly due to the size. For many years I felt that and to some degree still feel that in order to be super small dwarfism of some sort is a neccessary evil. Almost all other species have a threshhold of size that is the minimum and anything smaller is caused by some form of dwarfism or dwarf gene action.

Lets keep this going as it is an important subject. If anyone else has very minimal dwarfs or ones they felt were carriers please post them and just exclude names. I think the more we can see even in photos the more we can learn.

 

[jrae]

I for one, appreciate this discussion and I'm learning a lot!

 

[skylineminis]

I guess I'm really blind or I've seen different types of dwarfs than the rest of you. I don't see any dwarfism in these pictures. I don't see tiny ears, I don't see anything wrong with his nose and I wish you would have given him to me. From the "pictures' he looks fine to me. In life, he may look diferent butnot by these photos. I think he's just a really small horse. I have tow senior stallions that are 27 inches tall and they aren't dwarfs and have never produced a dwarf so far. I havae a yearling colt that is 27 inches and I don't think he's going to grow anymore either. There's a lot fo 25"-27" horses here in Texas and they are not dwarfs, or at least yhey don't look it.

And since when is tiny ears a sign of a dwarf? I call them little pig ears! They're cute! Most dwarfs have a round ear but not always. I've seen dwarfs with rather large ears. Maybe I'm confused and everyone else is right!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I think this illustrates the whole problem in a nutshell.

In the opinion of the breeder this horse exhibited enough dwarf traits for her to, very wisely, take him out of the gene pool.

The main problem with him, to me, is that he quite obviously is not breeding quality, which, whatever his size, would be enough for me to do exactly the same thing.

A horse being so small is NO reason to breed him, and every reason to geld.

There is NO horse too good to geld, none, end of story.

There are many, many horse out there that should be gelded.

This was one of them and kudos to his breeder for saying so.

I personally doubt that there are lots of horses under 27" around but, if there are, all the more reason to start gelding the inferior ones!!

Especially if they have dwarf characteristics.

Until we have a test we can only give it our best guess, which is what happened here- are you honestly telling me that this, (sweet) little horse is what you would choose to use as your breeding stallion??

And when it is said the animal has not [insert description here] anything(produced a non-spotted/patterned/dwarf foal etc) my immediate question would be- "So, how many mares has he bred???"

Because two or three doesn't cut it, and that seems to be the average for Mini stallions!!

My own 28" stallion has had over a 100 foals- well over- and since none has been Appy I think we can safely say he is not Appy.

None have been Dwarfs either, so that also is, or would appear to be, proven.

Until there is a test it cannot be said for sure, though.

If he had any dwarf characteristics, or had ever thrown a foal that had, or was, for the year he was foaled, less than top quality, much as I loved him, he would have been gelded.

I would have loved him no less.

 

[runamuk]

To tell the truth as I watched him grow up (haha) he often reminded me of a human with pituitary dwarfism. His proportions were not massively off. I spent 3 years watching him grow, studying many of the 200 human forms of dwarfism, consulted with people I respected. Was told he probably wasn't a dwarf by people many here respect

: and in the end I did what I felt was best for him.

Here is something to ponder. If he was a pituitary dwarf then administering growth hormone might have changed the outcome of his height. One of the reasons this type of dwarfism was one of my theories had to do with excessive hair growth. Before he came along I had the opportunity to deal with two aged ponies who developed pituitary problems and both had the distinguishing feature of very long and different hair. This colt grew some amazing winter hair and didn't shed well at all.

this isn't the best shot but gives an idea of how hairy he was I once measured his hair length at 8 inches and that wasn't his mane :bgrin

So just more food for thought, we still do not know what type/types of dwarfism affect our horses and it is possible there could be multiple types and in many cases I am willing to guess there will be more than one gene action involved.

 

[mininik]

Now that picture just makes me want to hug him...

:

Interesting discussion, by the way.

 

[Margo_C-T]

Yes, he absolutely looks like a little toy horse in that photo-cute as a little furry bug!!

Runamuk, to me this latest bit of info throws a whole different light on the subject of THIS particular little horse!! Miniatures definitely have heavier winter coats than bigger horses- even including most 'ponies' I've seen--but--8" of body hair coat??? You may well have hit on why this horse looked 'different', yet to many, did NOT show signs of (either, I presume) of the 'classic' signs of dwarfism in miniature horses, it seem to me! I know NOTHING about pituitary dwarfism, except that I HAVE heard the term, but---surely seems to me that it could be a viable notion.

Definitely an interesting and educational discussion....!

Margo

 

[skylineminis]

I think this illustrates the whole problem in a nutshell.

In the opinion of the breeder this horse exhibited enough dwarf traits for her to, very wisely, take him out of the gene pool.

The main problem with him, to me, is that he quite obviously is not breeding quality, which, whatever his size, would be enough for me to do exactly the same thing.

A horse being so small is NO reason to breed him, and every reason to geld.

There is NO horse too good to geld, none, end of story.

There are many, many horse out there that should be gelded.

This was one of them and kudos to his breeder for saying so.

I personally doubt that there are lots of horses under 27" around but, if there are, all the more reason to start gelding the inferior ones!!

Especially if they have dwarf characteristics.

Until we have a test we can only give it our best guess, which is what happened here- are you honestly telling me that this, (sweet) little horse is what you would choose to use as your breeding stallion??

And when it is said the animal has not [insert description here] anything(produced a non-spotted/patterned/dwarf foal etc) my immediate question would be- "So, how many mares has he bred???"

Because two or three doesn't cut it, and that seems to be the average for Mini stallions!!

My own 28" stallion has had over a 100 foals- well over- and since none has been Appy I think we can safely say he is not Appy.

None have been Dwarfs either, so that also is, or would appear to be, proven.

Until there is a test it cannot be said for sure, though.

If he had any dwarf characteristics, or had ever thrown a foal that had, or was, for the year he was foaled, less than top quality, much as I loved him, he would have been gelded.

I would have loved him no less.

Have you ever heard the term, "one person's trash is another one's treasure?" This could and does apply to the breeding of any animal. We're going to stay with horses here.

Until you breed a said stallion to different types of mares, you can't really get a reading on what the stallion can/will produce. Just because you have two National Grand Champion horses desn't mean you are going to breed National Grand Champion foals. Horses very seldom throw the same genes twice to the same mare.

Would I use this horse as my breeding stallion? It would depend on the type of mares I have and what my end goal was.

I have an abasolutely ugly palomino stallion (in my opinion) but, he has an extremely long neck. That is the only reason I am using him for breeding. He's a well bred little horse but not what I would consider a great stallion. I took a chance that my mare would over-ride his faults and she did. She produced a really nice palomino colt. Is he show quality? Probably not, but, I don't agree with what is being picked in the halter classes now. They have so many conformational faults (IMO) that most you couldn't give me. Too much emphasis is being put on the neck and not enough on the conformation of the actual horse. Again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I now strive for a well balanced horse with some substance. The horse in question, shows that to me "by the photos provided". The only problem with him being used for that goal is that he is too small. I prefer the using horses to be around 34"-36". The provide a more balanced picture in cart and they pull better/easier.

You said, "No horse is too good to be gelded." I disagree. Cross Country Call Me Sir for one and NFCS Rowdys Inspiration is another, and they are at the same ranch. That would be Alamo Miniatures. Jane has many stallions that have produced many, many great horses that never see the show ring and some do. If you want to see a bunch of really good Miniature horses, go to visit Alamo Miniatures.

There's another breeder, Bettes Acres, that has some of the most correct horses you could ever hope to breed. The only problem with their horses is that 95% of their horses look alike. Not many stand out because they are all so good. Would they win in the show ring? That's a good question. Depends on if the judge is judging horses or lead ropes.

Collectivly, they have the best herd of minis I know of. They just don't advertise so not many people know of them or their breeding program. If you are looking for some very good, honest breeding mares, give them a shout. You won't be dissapointed.

There are so many really good breeders out there that no one knows of that it's staggering. So just because you see a horse that is "not perfect", don't think with the right mares he couldn't produce some outstanding horses.

Sorry for all the typos in the other posting and maybe some in this one. I have just got to cut my fingernails!!!! LOL!!!!

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I have an abasolutely ugly palomino stallion (in my opinion) but, he has an extremely long neck. That is the only reason I am using him for breeding. He's a well bred little horse but not what I would consider a great stallion. I took a chance that my mare would over-ride his faults and she did. She produced a really nice palomino colt. Is he show quality? Probably not, but, I don't agree with what is being picked in the halter classes now. They have so many conformational faults (IMO) that most you couldn't give me. Too much emphasis is being put on the neck and not enough on the conformation of the actual horse. Again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Ok honest not trying to pick on you hear but.. I am totally confused. YOu are breeding what you consider a totally ugly stallion simply cause you feel he has a long neck however you dont agree with the conformation of any horse in the show ring now cause they are being bred only for a neck not conformation??????

 

[rabbitsfizz]

There is NO horse too good to be gelded.

Absolutely none.

There are many which, in YOUR opinion, YOU would not geld, but, IMO, there is NO horse too good to geld.

Nor would I use nor keep as a stallion an animal that I consider ugly as I cannot see the point.

If they do not please my eye why would I keep them??

I have been breeding far too long, and with as wide a selection of mares as is possible, to bother doing anything like that, I can assure you.

 

[skylineminis]

Ok honest not trying to pick on you hear but.. I am totally confused. YOu are breeding what you consider a totally ugly stallion simply cause you feel he has a long neck however you dont agree with the conformation of any horse in the show ring now cause they are being bred only for a neck not conformation??????

I guess that does come off looking like a double standard but, the mare I bred him to has a very good body and head but could use a little more length in her neck. It worked. The colt received her conformation and a beautiful head with a longer neck. It's not extreme but a nice length.

I will keep a stallion if I feel he will help my mares with what I consider they need help on. I once bought a mare just because I liked her head and hoped she passed it on. Best $350 I ever spent. (The man was selling all his minis.) She is a nice mare but I liked her head the best so I took a chance on her. That mare made me some pretty good money thorugh her foals.

I don't have the big money to go buy what's popular. I have to breed it. If someone wants to fault me on it, so be it. I have the rest of my life to breed what I'm looking for. I had a black pinto stallion that it took me 15 years of breeding to get him. He was so special. I never found anyone that didn't like Snoopy. His very first show he went Reserve Grand and he wasn't even halter broke until I took him to the show. He had very little handleing and he certainly wasn't conditioned. He was 4 months old and 24 inches tall. He won every class he went in except color and he got one second. He somehow got a small patch of hair missing on the top of his butt and one judge put him second. Unfortunately, I only had him for a very short 5 years. He slipped his hip and I had to have him put down. I couldn't stand for him to be in pain. Everyone at the vets office cried over that one. They all loved that little horse.

I'm not affraid to take chances to see what horse will cross with what horse. I don't breed just any horse to just any horse. I selectivly breed. I have seven stallions on my place and I have a black pinto medicine hat mare by Snoopy that I feel won't cross with anything on my place. Now, does anyone want to tear me apart for being selective? I am very selective, but, I'm willing to take chances on ugly horses if I feel they will improve my mares or stallions. I guess in some people's eyes, that's wrong, but I've had fairly good luck with the formula. Maybe it's the studying of horses for over fifty years paying off in my old age. Plus, I've had some very good people helping me get to where my breeding program is today.