For the overo breeders out there

[MiLo Minis]

For all you overo breeders out there: How many overo to overo breedings have you done and how many of those resulted in a lethal white foal? For anyone else how many lethal white foals have you personally seen in your lifetime?

 

[minimule]

I have a LW+ stallion. I haven't been into breeding for that long but once I found out he was LW+ I have been very careful NOT to breed him to a LW+ mare. I know it is only a 25% chance of having a LWO foal but it is a chance I will not take. I haven't personally seen a LWO foal but I have fought for a foal that didn't make it. I think it would be too hard for me to have a foal and KNOW it wouldn't make it no matter what I did.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Only Frame carries LWO.

IMO no-one in their right mind would (knowingly) breed a Frame to a Frame

 

[Ashley]

I agree with Rabbit. We have a LWO stallion. After testing him and finding this out, we also tested all of our other mares we thought might be LWO. Thankfully none of them were. He had two foals last year. One was a bald faced filly like her dam, and the other was almost solid white with a few white spots on her head.

This year we will see what he really produces as last years foals were from outside mares.

 

[Songcatcher]

The mathematical chances of getting a Lethal White foal that will not survive by mating two LWO+ horses is 25%.

You have just as good a chance of getting a Frame Overo by mating an LWO+ to a Solid (50%) as you do by mating two LWO+ together. Why would anyone ever knowingly take that chance?

 

[Amy]

We have a stallion that tested positive for the frame gene. We also have an overo filly-- I will nOT be breeding them together BUT I am sure anxious to see what he produces off some solid mares. Next year should bring some color hopefully & then next year we can breed with our new black & white pinto so color should be coming to our herd .

The overo filly I am debating whether to breed her to our blue roan or our black stallion-- maybe get some black & white if I choose the black?? Color is such an interesting topic.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

The only Pinto pattern that it would be dangerous to breed your Frame stallion to would be another Frame. No other pattern carries LWO.

Black Roan is also Black based so you stand a chance of a Black based foal form the Black Roan as well as the Black. You just stand a chance also of a Roan!!

 

[Dona]

I have never bred a LWO stallion to a LWO mare....and would never knowingly do so. That being said, I confess that I have never had my broodmares tested....but they are either from my own breeding....or I have done extensive research on them and know they have no Frames in their bloodlines. Now my Moonie fillies are a different story. The visual "frames" that I have kept will be bred to a Tobiano stallion. The others who aren't "visual" frames were tested to see if they carried LWO...just to be sure.

 

[Getitia]

We never breed LWO to LWO. But we do breed LWO to sabino/splash and tobianos and of course solids.

 

[MiLo Minis]

What I am asking is how many of you have personal experience with a lethal white? Not should I breed LWO to LWO. The statistical theory of 25% means that each and every time you breed there is a 1 in 4 chance of getting a LWO not that every 4th baby dies. Out of all the Paint horse breeders I know and have talked to very few have ever actually seen a lethal white foal. Just wondering how many lethal white minis you have personally known. I want to state that I have absolutely no intention of breeding a LWO to a LWO, don't even have two to breed. According to the Sabino.Splash theory that was discussed earlier this week Sabino or Splash to Overo could be LWO to LWO without knowing it. Has anyone personal experience with a lethal white from this type of mating?

 

[Songcatcher]

What I am asking is how many of you have personal experience with a lethal white? Not should I breed LWO to LWO. The statistical theory of 25% means that each and every time you breed there is a 1 in 4 chance of getting a LWO not that every 4th baby dies. Out of all the Paint horse breeders I know and have talked to very few have ever actually seen a lethal white foal. Just wondering how many lethal white minis you have personally known. I want to state that I have absolutely no intention of breeding a LWO to a LWO, don't even have two to breed. According to the Sabino.Splash theory that was discussed earlier this week Sabino or Splash to Overo could be LWO to LWO without knowing it. Has anyone personal experience with a lethal white from this type of mating?

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Sabino and Splash do NOT have LWO unless they also carry Frame and it is masked by the other patterns (which is possible).

 

[Getitia]

Yes, actually I know of several breeders who have produced Lethal whites and your statistics are correct. LWO to LWO - from a pure statistical perspective - you have a 25% chance of a LWO homozygous, 25% non LWO and 50% LWO heterozygous carrier.

A friend of mine bred a solid palomino mare - dark eyes, small narrow blaze - no other white who was out of a LWO stallion. She was bred to a LWO positive stallion and produced a homozygous LWO - They never suspected she was a LWO carrier- of course the condition was terminal for the foal.

Another individual who also breeds overos - has not in the past tested his "solid" with minimal white mares - and has been surprised many times with LWO foals. Personally, we test any horse produced out of a known LWO carrier who has any body white at all - and have been surprised when these solid appearing horses have tested LWO positive.

 

[minimule]

The breeder that I bought my LWO stallion from is the one that told me to have him tested. His dam is a minimal pinto. She was bred to an overo and they produced a LWO foal that of course didn't make it. It broke the breeders heart.

I had no idea my boy could have carried the gene. He is solid grullo with a tiny white snip on his nose. He has sired 4 foals so far, 3 bred to a tobiano and 1 to a solid palomino. All 4 foals have been pintos, 1 was never tested, 1 came back negative for the gene and this past year, both foals tested as carriers.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Yes, actually I know of several breeders who have produced Lethal whites and your statistics are correct. LWO to LWO - from a pure statistical perspective - you have a 25% chance of a LWO homozygous, 25% non LWO and 50% LWO heterozygous carrier.
A friend of mine bred a solid palomino mare - dark eyes, small narrow blaze - no other white who was out of a LWO stallion.  She was bred to a LWO positive stallion and produced a homozygous LWO - They never suspected she was a LWO carrier- of course the condition was terminal for the foal.

Another individual who also breeds  overos - has not in the past tested his "solid" with minimal white mares - and has been surprised many times with LWO foals.  Personally, we test any horse produced out  of a known LWO carrier who has any body white at all - and have been surprised when these solid appearing horses have tested LWO positive.

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Thank you Getitia! I think I will be testing all of my mares that MAY be positive and likely even the ones that I don't know about their parentage being LWO or not but show characteristics of possible LWO.

 

[wildoak]

The only Pinto pattern that it would be dangerous to breed your Frame stallion to would be another Frame. No other pattern carries LWO.

We have an APHA mare we are looking at breeding this year so I have been researching a little tonight. Articles from UC Davis and APHA both say that LWO carriers can show up in patterns besides overo, even in solid breedstock paints. Appearance apparently doesn't assure the horse is or isn't a carrier.

The stallion we had picked out for our mare is LWO, so based on her test results we will likely be shopping again for her "spouse".

Jan

 

[Ojai Minis]

When I had my big paint horses, I didn't breed but I had a friend who did. I don't know if she tested her stallion for LWO or not but I do know she breed him (He was visual frame) to an outside mare who was visual also. They had a Lethal white foal. It was the most heartbreaking thing to see. Anyways, she never tested any of her mares, (and I"m pretty sure the stallion had not been tested) Out of all the mares that stallion bred, that one mare was the only lethal white. Like someone said I would never chance that.

Liz

 

[MiLo Minis]

This is what has me wondering - should all horses that have any overo pinto background be tested and how would you be able to find out as quite a few of them would be so minimal that you wouldn't necessarily know. Or should you just not knowingly breed LWO pos to LWO pos, test those that there is a good possibility of them being positive and go with the odds on the rest??? If standing a stud that is LWO positive how do you handle it with mares coming in? A live foal guarantee is not much good if the mare turns out to be LWO pos and they haven't had her tested. You can't force them to test the mare beforehand.

 

[Ojai Minis]

I would test them all. It doesn't cost that much.

Unless, you KNOW your horses.

Liz

 

[minimule]

Since mine is +, if there is a mare coming in to breed to him I have them test the mare prior to coming. It only costs $25 and the turn around is pretty fast.

As far as being able to visually see that your horse is frame.......

The ONLY white on him.....

 

[Beccy]

As far as being able to visually see that your horse is frame.......

Yep that sure would be hard to figure out unless you you knew one parent was a carrier or that he had already produced one. I have seen a couple of apparently solid horses on sites, that have tested LWO positive - what a surprise people must get from them sometimes if they had no idea!

I also agree, we would not breed our LWO stallion to a known carrier, just not worth the risk, however small.

Your stallion is a neat colour.