Frusterated with New AMHR Papers

[Ashley]

I thought the whole point of pics was to properly identify the horse. Well so far out of 3 sets of papers only one has come back the right color. She was/is a cremello.........no doubt about that one.

Well I transfered my appy mare........her papers came back as a gray.......Does she look gray to you? she is 17.

Next horse is a 07 foal. I sold him on application. I provided the new owner a filled out form, as well as all the pics for this boy as he is yet to be weaned.

What color do you think he is? They sent them back as a black bay, with black points and a black and white tail. Come on, does he really look bay?????

 

[Mona]

Actually, I can see where they might call this mare grey. I would have reg'd her as a roan appy if that it what she is.

As for the foal, I would say black, but I guess it would all depend on what the pics you sent in look like.

 

[Ashley]

I did try registuring the mare as that, they wont accept that but after a few calls I did get them to take them back and change them to black appy. She is 17 at that age if she were gray she would be white.

The colt, I dont have the pics here I sent in but took them the same day of that pic. HE is black(might gray but doubt it). He looks like a typical black foal, black body, silver gray legs and black tail with the funky white stuff on the outer edges.

What I dont get is why they can just accept what is on the papers but insted have to change them and dont bother checking first.

 

[Miniv]

Have NO idea what your foal is color-wise........The only thing I'd be able to write correctly is that he has a STAR.

:

We have a mare about the same age who looks very much like your girl. She is registered as a "chestnut roan". But she also has all the appy characteristics, which totally messes things up for breeders, IMO.

If I were to push the issue I'd call my mare a liver chestnut roan (or frosted?) appy.

This color stuff with BOTH registries is really aggrivating. Eventually people will get upset enough to light a fire about it.

MA

 

[Lewella]

What gets me is that AMHR was not supposed to be selecting the colors OR changing the markings from what the breeders send in but that is exactly what is happening!

 

[Miniv]

What gets me is that AMHR was not supposed to be selecting the colors OR changing the markings from what the breeders send in but that is exactly what is happening!

Your post makes me smile.........because I sent in paperwork for a homebred filly to both AMHR and ASPC with photos to both. Same "general office" - right?

The AMHR papers are back without a problem. But the ASPC are questioning my description about her having "stockings" versus white legs! (I told them by phone to put whatever they want! I don't CARE!) But, to me, if there is any color on the legs - doesn't that make her have white stockings????

Here is an example of what they got.........Am I wrong??? This is why some of us go crazy with color!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

MA since she is a Pinto I would say "white legs" is correct.

Ashley I would say the mare is Varnish Appy- in fact I know she is.

No "roan"- it's confusing enough that Appy people use the term but, in this instance, unnecessary.

I would say the foal is Silver- possibly with Cream, but that picture is not that clear- do you have more.?

I write on the top of my papers "NO name or colour changes to be made without contacting breeder" VERY firmly.

You should not have to , though, they have NO right to change the recorded colour of the animal without contacting you- it makes a nonsense of the whole registration process!!

 

[Matt73]

Yeah, the colour on my stallion came back wrong. They listed him as a red roan. He has a VERY clear dorsal stripe, black-tipped and outlined ears, and is very clearly a red dun. There's only a tiny bit of sabino roaning on him that they can't even see from the pics. Hmmmm.

 

[Ashley]

Rabbit- I know Cookie is a Varnish. But they dont accept that either. That is first how she got registured as gray. So after calling them they finally agreed to black appy. So that is what I am changing her to as she is black based and she is appy. That is as closs to her color as I can possibley get.

The colt is black. His parents are gray(bay) and sorrel overo. No silver, and no cream. He is black. That pic of him is from a few days old. Now he is almost 3 months and where he is shedding he is jet black. There is no doubt in my mine he isnt black, I doubt he is going to gray, but need to clip him first to know for sure.

As for MA's horse it should be stockings, they only put white legs if all are like the one front left leg. All white all the way up.

I havent even started reg. the other foals yet. I am not looking forward to the one colt, he is a bay pinto(I am think silver bay). But you cant tell that with out looking at him. He has so much white where the black points should be and the only black he has is in his mane. Sure they wont accept that either.

 

[Lisa Strass]

Overall, I've actually had pretty good luck with the new papers, with one exception that just goes on and on. First it was pictures. That was solved. Next was color...

Meet Charlie who is registered ASPC as a palomino.

We sent in his transfer still listed as a palomino. We got his papers back listed as a chestnut! The office was called and we were told palominos must have white manes and tails. I'm not a color expert, but I do know this horse isn't chestnut. I intend to show this horse, and I can just see me measuring in with the steward and my "chestnut" horse :new_shocked: So the next suggestion from the office was silver dapple bay! I'm not exactly sure what a Silver Dapple Bay looks like either, but that seems more far reaching than my palomino suggestion. Finally, a compromise was reached... He is now registered as a palomino with a sooty mane and tail.

Out of curiosity, color experts, what do you think?

 

[Mona]

Out of curiosity, color experts, what do you think?

He looks like he could be a silver buckskin?

 

[sedeh]

:bgrin I just got my papers back for my colt. I sent in silver bay. They sent back sorrel. In their favor.....his dam is incorrectly labeled as sorrel on all her papers and I've never changed it, so maybe their thinking he can't be silver bay with a sorrel dam and blk/white sire. His dam is a silver bay pinto.....definately has silver gene!

 

[Songcatcher]

Out of curiosity, color experts, what do you think?

Just from the pictures, I would consider Chestnut or Silver Bay before I would Palomino. Testing would tell for sure.

I just got my papers back for my colt. I sent in silver bay. They sent back sorrel. In their favor.....his dam is incorrectly labeled as sorrel on all her papers and I've never changed it, so maybe their thinking he can't be silver bay with a sorrel dam and blk/white sire. His dam is a silver bay pinto.....definately has silver gene!

You certainly can get Silver Bay from a Black X Sorrel cross if the Sorrel carries Agouti and Silver, both of which can hide in Sorrel.

 

[Mona]

Actually Lisa, the more I look at that color, the more he reminds me of a shade of dun...maybe he's a silver dun. What colors are his parents?

 

[ohmt]

Stallion looks red dun to me....i don't see a dorsal though. See how is lower legs and head are a bit darker than the rest of him?? Classic red dun. His mane and tail could be that washy color due to another reason...does he have overo breeding? With the legs being white and the facial white he looks like he might have some pinto/overo gene in there. Worth getting him tested for I think. He is NOT palomino and he is NOT silver bay. What color are his sire and dam out of curiousity (though that may not help!).

I am having just as hard a time with AMHR and their coloring as everyone else. I have a bay few spot appy stallion and as a foal I sat outside and carefully drew the couple of spots he had and put down Bay Appaloosa and then for markings I put Few Spot appaloosa (since you can't have that in coloring I put in markings just in case someone ever looks it up..they'll know!). His papers came back as Bay Pinto with markings still set on few spot appaloosa. NOT right! He has not pinto in him whatsoever. I decided to wait until he was 3 to change the color same time as permanent papers. I put on there that he is NOT pinto in big letters to get my point across and that he is a bay appaloosa...papers came back and he is now a Bay Pintaloosa!! AGGHHHH! So frustrating. I think they need to read some of these posts on colors and genetics.

:

 

[Songcatcher]

Stallion looks red dun to me....

Hmmm. It does look like there might possibly be a dorsal. Can't tell for sure in the picture. Also looks like maybe blue eyes and with the crazy face marking, I would expect Splash.

 

[Lewella]

B&L's Rock "E" Good Man Charlie correct? He could be palomino or silver buckskin - those are the only cream gene options and there is no doubt he has a cream gene. NO DUN IN THIS BLOODLINES for those who see dun everywhere. He is a full brother to Belinda's Bright Day, Jackie Tyler's Paper Lace, Mason's Ultra Bright, etc.

Since his leg white is so high and this mare line often tends to go for the wild bay low points he could very well be a silver buckskin. ASPC will register Silver Buckskin as a color.

That said, who gave the office authority to change colors?????? That's what I want to know and I want to see stopped. The office staff is not educated in equine color genetics! A palomino can have a sooty mane and tail - Good Man Charlie was registered as a palomino with a sooty mane and tail. No way that should be changed! He's 7 years old for cripes sake and OWNERS can't even change a Shetlands color after age 3!!!

Everyone, start writing your directors, start writing the committees - this has to stop and it has to stop now. The office is not qualified to determine/change the colors of our horses!

Silver Dapple Bay is just a long, convoluted way of saying silver bay.

MA - I have no idea why the insist on "white leg" for anything over the knee. To me a white leg is just that - a completely white leg all the way to the body! This description does not even comply with their official markings example page (which can be downloaded on the forms online page) which goes from "Stocking" to "White Leg to Knee"......

 

[Lisa Strass]

B&L's Rock "E" Good Man Charlie correct? He could be palomino or silver buckskin - those are the only cream gene options and there is no doubt he has a cream gene. NO DUN IN THIS BLOODLINES for those who see dun everywhere. He is a full brother to Belinda's Bright Day, Jackie Tyler's Paper Lace, Mason's Ultra Bright, etc.

Hi Lewella, you are correct! This is B&L's Rock "E" Good Man Charlie, son of Rock E, and full brother to the horses you have listed. No dorsal on this guy. Here's a picture I got from the Martins of him when he was younger. The picture itself has some funny shading on it, so I can't tell for sure, but here it looks like there may be some silver shading around the knees and hocks. I know I've looked at his knees and hocks here recently, but don't seen any signs of shading at this time. Probably just going to have to break down and test for silver

Edited to add: I don't much about his mother's side, but the Rock E side does have some wild patterned overos that show up every now and again. Also, see the Wallstreet ad in the current issue of The Journal for a picture of Charlie's sire.

 

[LindaL]

He looks silver bay to me. I have a gelding listed on his AMHA papers as "palomino", but he is definately a silver bay and looks a lot like your boy, color-wise (except for the white markings).

Edited to add...I know this is a AMHR thread, but does AMHA recognize silver bay asa color and can I change my gelding's color when I do his transfer (he is 10 yrs old) ?

 

[bluerogue]

Well, I'm going to have to say I think Charlie (who is absolutely gorgeous, by the way) looks to me like he is a dark golden palomino. The picture from when he was younger screams palom,ino to me. There is always the chance he could be a very like sorrel/chestnut, but I don't think so. It just doesn't fit him. I don't know enough about the various overo genes to say if he might carry one or not. All I know, is that is one darn fine looking horse!