Geldings..... why arent they around for sale?

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]Probably because people are NOT GELDING their colts..... Why is it that if someone says, "Gee he would make a great gelding" or.....do you need another stallion really, or when we point out that 99% of the colts born SHOULD be geldings, we get made out to be terrible busybodies out to be in everyone elses business.[/SIZE]

I think some people are hard on the ones of us that are of the opinion that most colts should not be left stallions. Why is that???? I got the feeling from what was said after I posted on Martys thread about her colt that people think I should not have said that..... why not? Everyone complains that the prices for minis are down.... I get calls from people wanting show quality double registered, colorful mares A sized and stallions for less than 1000. When I tell them that even my big geldings that I sell go for more than that then they say" well...so and so over yonder has registered stallions for sale all the time for 500 or less I'll go there and get me one." So Joe Blows mediocre or poor colts become stallions to make more mediocre to poor foals to sell to the people that are either unsuspecting, uneducated or dont care, for next to nothing. Why not geld everything you produce unless it is better than his father, and then geld the father and use the better son.

You can all flame me all you want for saying that these colts want to be geldings.... but they really do! I made a promise to geld every colt that left here unless I and some other knowledgeable people felt he was nationals potential, breeding material and I have made good on that promise. It is not a crime to geld. It is good responsible farm management to geld. I have been known to be barn blind when it came to some of my horses and I see that there are others in my shoes. Why leave a colt a stallion if he doesnt have the "stuff" to be greater than his parents and improve the breed.

Flame away, sorry but this has been bugging me for a while here.

Lyn

 

[FairytailGlennMinis]

There aren't many geldings out there because people talk the talk but don't walk the walk...plain and simple. Then there are the "oh but I looooove it and want to have babies just like it because I will love them too".......aaaaaaaaaackkkkkkkkkkkk! Sorry, but I MUCH prefer geldings! I have a very small herd of five, two mares and three geldings. Man do I wish my two mares were geldings too! I am one that when I am looking for a driving horse, a pet horse, a therapy horse, a performance horse--whatever, I want a GELDING! Gelding does NOT mean that horse is trash! Suggesting gelding does NOT mean an insult to the horse in question! AAAAccck! Okay...all done and climbing off the soapbox now.

-Amy

 

[nootka]

[SIZE=12pt]Same here, Lyn, everyone complains that they can't find a good gelding, well, ALL these weanling colts are potentially great geldings![/SIZE]

My little Kyan, he's for sale as a gelding. IF someone wants to pay his stallion price (my belief here is that people should be willing to pay more for a quality, correct and sound breeding stallion than they would a gelding), then he would go intact to the right home, however, as soon as we can arrange it, he will be a gelding, no regrets.

I've gotten a few ribs about why I would dare do that, but when people are paying dirt cheap prices for intact double registered colts, THAT is why.

To me, it's the ultimate respect to a great stallion to geld his colts with prejudice to a truly GREAT foal (sorry, but you can USUALLY see that greatness by the time they are a year old, no waiting til they are "two, three, four, etc.").

Anyway, I am sure I'll have a horrible time trying to sell him as people always want them entire, and I'll eventually barely get what it took to bring him into the world, but I'll say this: if he was a SHE, she would be staying here. I wish I didn't already have my show gelding, as I would, now, but I figure there SHOULD be a market for a good, quality, good-minded gelding, that is why I keep breeding, so no flames there, please.

It's the gelding issue that takes the price down, at least in my experience.

Mouse had very little competition in this area as a Jr. gelding, but the competition for seniors is HUGE in this region. I doubt we'll do well because, frankly, in the NW, there are hundreds of truly great senior geldings, but it seems less people are willing to make the commitment to do it when they're young.

Doesn't change my mind. My colts are ALL geldings unless there is a very compelling reason not to. Most times it's the other way around. If they want a foal by his father, they will have to pay his stud fee and/or buy a mare in foal to him, etc., not just buy an intact colt for a fraction of the price.

People have a lot of emotion and sentiment wrapped up in the gelding issue and I had to convince my husband was one of them w/Mouse. I think he understands, now, but he still wonders why I didn't at least get "just one foal" from him.

Well, I could go on and on, but the problem w/selling geldings is that noone wants to buy them, at least it seems to me.

I have had perhaps two inquiries on Kyan, and when they found out I was selling as a gelding only, they went the other way, FAST. I don't think $2000 (I am willing to deal to a good home that will pay attention to him, be it show or not) is that high for a gelding that will be big enough to drive, dual registered, etc., but others sure do. Not going to change my mind, though, I am going to keep at it and luckily we have one extra stall, so he can stay til he finds that right home.

Liz M.

Why not geld everything you produce unless it is better than his father, and then geld the father and use the better son.

Lyn's statement here is my new mantra, basically, though I currently don't have a breeding stallion, if I did, I would not hesitate to geld the father had I a better son of his.

This is the idea behind breed improvement is to choose better and better quality indivduals and to cull (i.e., not breed) the ones that are either the same or lesser quality.

It seems that with minis, because of their size and cute factor, the idea is to keep that "pet" and have him make little "Pets" just for loving but you know what? There are SO MANY "pets" out there standing in filth, waiting to be rescued and loved, if you opted not to make another, and go find one, it would be a blessing to the populations.

I just see so many pet quality minis or average I should say, mediocre maybe? being produced from the high quality breedings that it doesn't make sense to keep breeding dozens and dozens of the ones that are just "so so". Not making judgments as to which is which, and I can say that even the quality of my own is arbitrary to many since they wouldn't like the type, height, color, whatever, of my stock, and so would consider them "pet quality" I like to think that my horses are at least good show quality, they are correct, healthy and sound in body and mind. The ones that aren't, and there have been a few, have been removed from the breeding population and given pet homes which I check on. I WISH it were easier to spay mares, as two of the horses I wanted to place in pet homes were mares, but I am satisfied, at this point, that they are not being bred, and that is the best I can do. Mares ARE half the equation, after all.

Liz M.

 

[Jill]

[SIZE=18pt]I'm a fan of geldings... I did geld a successful show stallion and sold him. In the future, as I have colts, I'd say more likely than not they will be gelded and sold if I decide to sell. Geldings, in my book, are awesome! WAY too many people get into minis and start breeding but have no clue about quality. The only thing a stallion can do that a gelding cannot is sire foals. I feel there are more and more "stallion quality geldings" and for the show ring, you need that. UNFORTUNATELY, there are also tons of stallions that would make mighty fine geldings. Only the best of the best should be stallions, in my opinion, and there is not any shame in gelding an awesome stallion if it gives him a better life and makes him easier for his people to enjoy.[/SIZE]

 

[Flyin G Farm]

I completely agree...just had a colt gelded last weekend at our house...he's nice and I can't really fault him...but he'll make an even better gelding and a much happier horse. We had gelded his sire as well...and he's a MUCH happier horse. I'm all for gelding too...and I'd much rather have an awesome gelding carrying my farm name out there...than an average stallion carrying my farm name. It really would be nice to start seeing miniature geldings being valued like a gelding is in big horse breeds. In our area (I'm not too horribly far from Liz)...the gelding classes are getting very large...it's really awesome to see!

Tracy

 

[Frankie]

Why leave a colt a stallion if he doesnt have the "stuff" to be greater than his parents and improve the breed.

One thing with the above statement, using the word "greater" than.

My colt is sired by BTU, now is my colt going to be greater than BTU???????? Doubt it, so should he be gelded? Uhhhh, noooooooooo....Unfortunately, many people think how I am thinking. Just because they have a son of ???????, that son can never be greater than the sire, but, has proven himself in the show ring to be worthy of his own herd. But, not all colts are "proven", they just have a national champion sire, making the colt worth ???????

I know that is how some people look at it.

Not what you were saying, my boys are gelded, and they aren't out there for sale as they will always be here, and I think a lot of people think that way as well.

Also wanted to add that Joe Blow's $500 horse is NOT always of lesser quality! Nationals for sure proved that one this year.

 

[Miniv]

I gotta agree.......

We have some boys here we are PLANNING on gelding and haven't yet! A neighbor of our's has a huge barn

and arena and he's talking big plans about having a GELDING CLINIC. So we've put off gelding for that.

If it doesn't happen soon we are having OUR OWN gelding party!!!!

MA

 

[bevann]

I think more colts would be gelded if they dropped sooner than they do.I had to wait until 35 months for 1 guy to drop-they off they went.I too would like to see more geldings.Unfortunately Mini foals are jusy so darned cute-almost everybody who sees them wants to have a baby or 2.I love the geldings and wish there were more of them.Mini stallions are easier to handle than full size horse stallions.I think that is their downfall.

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]Frankie, If I owned your beautiful little boy .... I agree, he may not ever be better than BTU.... You bought him for a breeding stallion. If he were mine, and he produced a colt that I and some other qualified people felt was better than he is.... I would keep the son and geld the orriginal stallion. Your stallion doesnt really fit the criteria. He is out of a national champion and had been a successful show horse himself wasnt he? That qualifys him in my book to be a stallion. However. Lots of people out there bought stallions that wont ever be local champions let alone national champions who are producing colts that they are not wanting to geld...for whatever reason... If you are a asmall farm like me, I have only 6 mares right now. I own 1 stallion who doesnt live here and I own half of one that does. That is enough stallion/mare ratio for me. even tho some of these mares are being bred this year to outside stallions with the intent of keeping their best daughters to use with the stallion I have later. I will geld any colts produced here this year because their sires have proven their show and breeding potential, have been national champions and national top ten horses and it would be hard to be better than that. They will however be AWESOME futurity and super G prospects! They will be gelded as soon as they are 3 months old if they have dropped.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[nootka]

[SIZE=14pt]Greater than can be a subjective term, but in my meaning, it means that colt has more presence, is more correct, etc. No horse is perfect, and if we're improving, then the next generations should be better still.[/SIZE]

I'm not saying just because your horse is out of or by a National Champion this or that, it should automatically be kept intact, but you need to look at the horse objectively.

Throw out what you know about the parentage, and see if that horse, on his own, is great enough to know that he will have foals as good as or better than himself, and hopefully better than the sire.

No matter who the sire, I believe the best ones have better offspring than themselves. This may not be reason to geld them right away, but it does eventually put them "out of business" as it should be...?

Liz M.

 

[Littleum]

Amen.

I think the descion to geld also it gets caught up in some strange sense of "failure" or ego..... intellectually, someone KNOWS they should geld their inferior colt, but actually DOING it will admit that their breeding program produced something less-then-stallion quality. So it can get personal- when it SHOULDN'T be- very quickly!

And then there are the financial issues as well- it STILL exists that a colt with very little show potential is worth more with his testicles as a "stallion prospect" (I cringe at the thought), then as a gelding who has both no show potential and no breeding potential.

Unlike the big horse world, there are no "stratas" of showing within our breed. It's either Big Time or sporadic schooling shows where you can find them. There is no thriving "middle market" show strata for these horses to head to, so there is very little demand.

 

[Marty]

Why not geld everything you produce unless it is better than his father, and then geld the father and use the better son.

Well yall better had sit down before you fall down and faint because I finally have to agree with what Lyn just said. I agree. The object HERE is to combine the right stock together so that they will surpass their sire and dam both.

As far as who to geld, and when and what to breed, and what to geld is for each owner to decide on their own what is right for them and what is right for thier farm may not be right for yours.

 

[Bluerocket]

:deadhorse2: :deadhorse2: :deadhorse2: :deadhorse2: :deadhorse2:

Haven't we been around this bush enough times?

Until the market for a gelding is better than for a colt - of the same quality -- and until the market makes it financially worth the while of the breeder to GELD the colt -- most people will continue selling colts instead of geldings.

Unless you have some spectacular stallion candidate - you won't get hardly anything for them at all - as colts or geldings - and often you don't get what you have invested in them -- shots, deworming, feed, hay, trimmin, registration fees etc.. not to mention expenses of gelding as well... and the costs of caring for the mare from mare care, breeding, boarding, feeding etc.. + vet expenses + you name it.

There is nothing wrong with NOT GELDING a horse -- just because you did not geld him - does not mean you intend to breed him.

 

[Joyce]

From what I hear from folks is that if Vets would not charge an arm and a leg to geld, there would be more geldings out there. Prices have gone up so much in our area that to geld a colt makes him expensive and most people won't won't to buy at the price you'd have to ask. JMO

Joyce

 

[northernmi]

I totally agree with you. In the large horses, around here a gelding is higher than everything eles. My boys leave here gelded and if I dont get close to what I am asking, I sit on them until I find them a good home and dont give them away. I have lots of kids around that would love to show them. Last year we didnt breed at all whole waiting for the last one to sell. I have had a few people people get mad because I ask what I do for them and for all the care and medical bills, time and the chance you take breeding your mares, to them, Oh well! If I find a very special home I make sme exceptions. Way to many people have a few and think its a good way to make some money and breed, to them I say, wait until you lose your mare or have to have a c- section. Dont breed and ad to the problem of animal abuse cases and neglect.

 

[Margo_C-T]

There'll certainly be no flames from me for expressing this kind of opinion, LYN!

Talking the talk, but not walking the walk--is absolutely right! When the subject arises,"EVERYONE" comes forth supporting the idea of gelding, but when THEY have a colt, too often it's "would make a great herd sire, or, YOU could geld it"-but seldom is it that the breeder goes ahead and gelds it before the sale-or, for that matter, to keep. Too often, I fear, it is about the breeder's ego, NOT the colt's demonstrable quality. When I felt a colt I bred was not a world-beater stallion prospect(and as the breeder, I have only sold two that way-one of which I personally thought 'should' be gelded-and who then went on to be a multiple National Top Ten, and came back to do it again several years later!), I gelded him before he left here. An uncomplicated gelding is NOT that expensive, BTW, and should be factored in in your costs of producing horses.

I feel several things are in play here. Frankly, I think one is being too cheap to pay to have colts gelded--hey, if you can't sell horses for enough to cover the cost of gelding them, WHY ARE YOU BREEDING AT ALL?

Second, it is not uncommon for miniature horses to not be fully descended, at least until they are of 'advanced' age-meaning two or three years of age. Again-a matter of not being willing to spend the money-and again, if your committment to breeding is what it SHOULD be, you should know that the expense of a surgical gelding is part of what you signed on for, as a breeder-- it's not ethical to sell a horse you know may be a problem to some unsuspecting buyer, now, is it? Do you feel you are breeding to better the breed? Yes? Then put your money where your mouth is-meaning, pay what it takes to geld such a horse,so that particular problem goes no further, or---don't be BREEDING!

A gelding is the quinessential performance horse. In miniatures, I believe that there is definitely a growing demand for horses that are more than just something to lead into the halter arena, or to pet. However, we lag far behind other breeds in recognizing the value of geldings in the performance arena. I believe one reason is that few understand how to properly train for performance. Even the 'pros' who train miniatures for driving often have little to no background with any breed BUT miniatures; they often 'train' only to the show ring, not to produce a genuinely well-rounded, truly collected and properly balanced driving horse--instead they hurry the horse into the show ring, taking the WORST from other breed show rings-because they haven't enough deep and enduring horse knowledge to do otherwise.The frequent result is horses that are NOT reliable, that sour, that don't 'last'. Well-made, reliable performance horses, in ANY discipline, are not "made" overnight--once someone takes the time and effort to put this proper training into a horse, they are not inclined to then 'give' it away-yet in miniatures, there is an expectation that a gelding, just by virtue of BEING a gelding, is of low value--and the most valuable thing about a well-trained horse--the TRAINING itself-is grossly undervalued. Also in miniatures, there is a notion that 'anyone' can train one--and people who would know better than to try it with a full-sized horse will do so with a miniature--often leading to poorly-trained animals.

If in miniature horses, there finally develops a recognition of the value of a well and properly trained performance horse, THEN perhaps geldings will be recognized as they should be. What is needed, as much as anything, is a deeper knowledge of horsemanship, per se, among those within the breed.

Margo

 

[minimule]

There is nothing wrong with NOT GELDING a horse -- just because you did not geld him - does not mean you intend to breed him

The only problem with this is that IF that horse is sold as a stallion, the next owner (or several down the line) WILL breed it. It's a stallion. If it is all ready a gelding....no problem.

Around here it almost pays to geld. I get more calls for "pets" than anything else. Of course.......this is NM

: (private joke there) A lot of folks are getting minis because they are cute. They don't want to breed and some have experience with mares and don't want a mare. I've actually turned folks away this year because I didn't have any geldings....yet. Now I will have at least 1.

My colt this year will be gelded before sold. He is cute as a button (not enough reason to keep as a stallion) and full of himself. I'm afraid if left a stallion he could be uncontrollable in the wrong hands. I gelded a colt last year for the same reason. He was so full of himself at 2 months, he was trying to take on the mature stallion.

MY vet is reasonable. He charged $80 last year. Not too bad.

One of the local clubs has a "gelding incentive" program which I think is a good idea. They will reimburse part of the cost of gelding.

We do have breeders in this area that won't admit they have "pets". If a potential client calls looking for a pet, they are directed elsewhere and the contact info dropped. I'm sorry but not every foal out there is perfect. I've seen them.

 

[nootka]

[SIZE=14pt]No excuses here about cost of gelding: to geld a routine one, it is $65, that includes a farm call.[/SIZE]

To surgically geld was about $185 including a week (7 days) stay at my vet's clinic, in a deep, spacious stall w/daily pain medications and monitoring.

Since I am not making money at this and it is a hobby, I have the luxury to spend more than I make on these guys (does not mean I don't need to get SOME money from them to help pay the bills). But, in the interest of a good life for my little colts, I feel like gelding them is better in the long run, because someone who would have the good sense to realize that a gelding would be best for them to start out with, will likely care better for my little colt than the would were he intact.

It's been proven to me again and again, so don't get upset w/me for saying that.

My advice to anyone that asks is to lease or purchase an experienced show gelding if they want to get "into minis". Or even just a well trained, easygoing pleasure gelding, he doesn't have to have a show record, but around here, there are a lot of them, often available for just the cost of their upkeep, to lease.

Matter of fact, I think I would look at a lease myself, if I had one to do so with.

I just think everyone first wants to purchase a "stallion" for their later breeding plans, when they don't know a lot about the industry, the market, or the horses themselves, and end up with regrets. The gelding helps them get their feet in the doors so to speak, and they begin to learn what they like/dislike, what sells and doesn't sell and what they eventually want to do, show, breed, or show and breed, or just enjoy them as pets.

Yes, a big part of the problem is the difficulty in getting ANY price for any gender of mini, and people see a gelding as a dead end road, so therein lies the majority of the problem. I don't see it as whipping a dead horse to discuss it, though. This is healthy, and it helps us all to reach more informed decisions. Hopefully those that are reading will also learn from the words of others and either recognize their own situations, or form better opinions.

I WISH like heck I'd gotten started with a gelding or two, and taken it slow, but instead, I started off with a gelding quality stallion and a herd of mares, only one of which was true breeding quality (Gramma P), and she was ready to croak from starvation. My own ego and ignorance got in the way, and I went through a lot of horses on my way up to a nicer herd (not that mine now is PERFECT, but it's better and I even get compliments from other breeders I admire, so I know I must be on a better track).

Liz M.

 

[Anne]

We have only had three colts born here, just been lucky, most were fillies. The first was gelded, and sold, the second will be gelded on Monday, he's coming a year old,(will be my show gelding) and the third is just two days old.

Since we moved here I have had local folks knocking on my door wanting to sell me their mini stallions.

They were cute, and bought cheap as pets. Never gelded but for some reason these folks thought a young stallion was a good pet for the kids, (because he was cheap). They don't want to "spend the money" to geld. They equate ir to neutering a dog. Most here don't, it's purely a "money decision".

These little stallions are now unruly untrained little beasts with bad feet and little care, less handling, because they have become "mean".

I will NEVER sell a colt cheap as a pet. There seems to be a problem in this area, someone is sure selling them cheap.

All colts sold here for a family will be sold already gelded.

Only buyers with horse experience who understand what a stallion "is" will purchase an intact colt from me, and he will be REALLY good quality.

This has been driving me crazy, since we moved here.

 

[nootka]

[SIZE=14pt]Oh, yeah, last year, in show winnings, my jr. gelding, Mouse, made approx. $200 in cash earnings for his show placings/points. (gelding incentive offered by my club, the NWMHC along with cash paybacks for Championships taken in lieu of a halter w/tag, though we did opt for one of those at some point)[/SIZE]

Enough to pay for gelding him three times over and have some left over for treats.

I think Kyan will do the same hopefully I can get him gelded before the show after this one and I had intended to do it prior to this first show of the year, but things didn't work out.

That said, he WILL be gelded prior to leaving my farm for his new home. I am very committed to this (geldings) and I guess if it makes me an unpopular seller, so be it. I do know people have walked away after reading my sale list, because I listed "gelding only". I watched and listened to discussions when people didn't know I was the owner, and KNOW FOR A FACT that is why they left. Oh, well. Probably not the type of people I wanted to sell to, I had to say, if they wanted a dirt cheap colt.

not saying all that want intact stallions are bad or poor homes, rather that I'd like to know their plans for the stallion, and feel compelled to agree with them.