Hardshipped horses

[Becky]

This is for any registry. Do you feel hardshipped horses are more or less valuable than those that are registered the normal way? Would you buy a hardshipped horse?

 

[Annabellarose]

I am still very new to the breed and I will freely admit that I know very little about hardshipping and the situations that make having to hardship a horse necessary...that said: Can there be a situation where a hardshipped horse's pedigree is acknowledged by the registry or do all hardshipped horses have "unknown" as their pedigree? If a hardshipped horse's pedigree is acknowledged by the registry, then, no, to me, a hardshipped horse is not less valuable TO ME. However, if a hardshipped horse's pedigree is not acknowledged by the registry, then, yes, to me, a hardshipped horse is less valuable TO ME (even if I can still breed it with and show it against other registered horses). I do not understand the point of trying to create a breed (even a "size" breed or a "color/pattern" breed) unless pedigree/purity is eventually going to be considered important. I do not mind if there will always be a size limit for AMHA horses and AMHR A and B horses, but a breed could still be developed with both a size limit and a pedigree/purity requirement.

 

[muffntuf]

You make it sound like hardshipped horses are the dredge of the world - when in fact there are a ton of gems out there that don't have papers. Whether they are performance only or halter - they are gems and it is worth it to put papers on them.

They are just as valuable and yes I do have a few.

 

[wcr]

There are lots of reasons horses don't have papers. It is my belief that we will be deluged with unregistered horses after the economy turns around. How many of you have horses showing up under your name that you sold and they were never transferred?

The prettiest mare I had couldn't be registered because AMHA wouldn't register her because I didn't know her dam hadn't been DNA'd and she died before I knew it. I have her pedigree, bred the horses on my place(this was a leased mare by the way) and the vet was willing to write a statement that this filly came from this mare since the mare had to be put down when the filly was 5 weeks old.

I think you need to look at the horse and judge it conformationally and decide for yourself if it has value to you personally.

 

[~Lisa~]

Without a doubt it would not change their value. For the most part pedigree does not mean that much to me it is the horse I am looking at in front of me not on paper. So for me would not change the value of the horse at all short of making it worth more then if it was not hardshipped (assuming we are talking non riding horses)

 

[ohmt]

I don't believe it changes their value, but usually when I see that a horse has been hardshipped into AMHA, I know there is something special about that horse because not only does it cost a small fortune, but it's a pain the butt to do. We've hardshipped a couple of mares and only one stallion. I can't remember how much it ended up being for the mares, but the stallion cost us $1800 to hardship when all was said and done. We are currently trying to progeny hardship another stallion and it's taken us over a year to do because of all the stuff we need. He has to be DNAd twice, a late stallion report filed, pictures taken (twice now), we have to haul him 6 hours one way to get an official measuring, old owners of sire and dam have to sign papers (took us a few months to find the old owner of his sire) and then we have to have transfers for all of his previous change of owners and signatures from everyone PLUS we have to pay for all of that. Would we go through all of that for a horse we didn't feel is worth it? HE double hockey sticks no! I want to rip my hair out....

P.s.-just because a horse doesn't have a pedigree on his papers does NOT make him/her less valuable in my eyes. Some of the most influential horses on the miniature horse breed have zero or very little pedigree on their papers. A good horse is a good horse no matter what. If more people bought and bred horses based on conformation and not pedigree, the miniature horse world would be a MUCH better place

 

[Devon]

My hardshipped horse is probably the best of my herd! Id say he is also worth double my other horses! So I think yes they can be the best and yes they can be extremely valuable! They birng in new breeding to the registry!!

 

[Joanne]

Becky for me the answer is yes and no.

I buy the horse first, but use the pedigree to learn if they are related to my own horses, to look at the genes in the background, and the heights.

I have hardshipped three horses in the last 17 years of breeding miniatures. As was stated, you do this because you think this horse is exceptional, because the cost ($600.00 for a mare and $1000.00 for a stallion), plus DNA kit ($41.00), getting to an official measurer, waiting until they are permanent (five years until this new 3 year ruling), and not wanting to use them until they are AMHA papered (one had no papers).

Two of the horses were AMHR horses so I had a pedigree and papers, though AMHA would not recognize that. One was a mare whose owner had died and the relatives dispursed the horses and tossed the papers, so no one knew anything about them. That mare was a stunning horse with a foal at her side. I sold the foal and hardshipped the mare when she got old enough.

But I have also lost sales because when the potential buyers looked them up in the studbook there was no pedigree. Some buyers were not interested in that.

I personally feel that AMHA should not close the registry. The people that hardship horses into AMHA are spending money on a horse they feel is worth it.

 

I also feel that in this day of DNA we should be able to add the pedigree on a hardshipped horse if we can prove by DNA who the parent/s are. Even if there would be an extra fee involved, providing the sire and dam are already registered to that registry.

 

[Reble]

I have a gorgeous frame black Overo filly which will be hard shipped into A

once she is 3 but that is different than just full hardship, but she is worth it..

Yes, the horse is what you need to be looking at.

Decide what you are planning for their future, that might make it all worth it.

 

[Becky]

Thanks everyone for your input so far. Keep it coming!

I also feel that in this day of DNA we should be able to add the pedigree on a hardshipped horse if we can prove by DNA who the parent/s are. Even if there would be an extra fee involved, providing the sire and dam are already registered to that registry.

Actually, Joanne, you can in AMHA. If the sire or dam (or both) of a hardshipped horse is DNA'd, then the hardshipped horse (who has to be DNA'd for registration) can have a parent(s) listed on their AMHA papers if they Parent Qualify to that horse. No extra charge from AMHA at this time. I've done that in the past and am going to do it again.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I don't see any reason why it should put a negative impact on a horse because it was hardshipped. Now is it worth it to where you can get your money back on that horse if you happen to sell it, maybe not.

 

[rcfarm]

I would buy a hardshipped horse if it was what I was looking for. I have a gelding I would love to hardship, R reg. I know his pedigree, breeding. The breeders mare is only reg A , so I can not reg without a lot expense. So he is still agreat driving horse for me. Just cant show in breed shows.

 

[maestoso]

I think there are plenty of hardshipped horses out there that I'd pay way more for than plenty of horses with papers. Pedigree may be part of a horses value but in my opinion the individual horse is more important. personally I don't care who the sire and dam are if it's an ugly horse. An ugly horse is an ugly horse. And vice versa, I'm not going to turn away from a gorgeous horse because it comes from nothing.

I think it was silly to close the registry but that's not what the thread is about! A breeder who is placing more value on a pedigree than the actual horses they are using for breeding will soon find themselves breeding mediocre or lesser quality horses. Unfortunately this speaks for many, many programs. All this talk about a poor market, part of this is true. But what is also true is that buyers are getting smarter about what they are buying, and the mediocre horses that sold for $5000 even just a few years ago are barely worth $500 now, and so arent selling. It's not just that there are too many of them, it's also that people just don't want them. The really good ones are still selling. The farms that consistently produce winning show horses change with the times, and are always improving.

So my answer is weather a horse is hardshipped or not, for me, is totally irrelevant. I care about the horse. If you can have a great horse with a great pedigree, great! But to me it is never the first priority.

 

[Minimor]

Well, in the Miniature breed, a hardshipped horse of unknown parentage isn't necessarily worth any less than a pedigreed horse, simply because for the most part minis don't breed true anyway, regardless of their pedigree.

In Morgans if you have a horse that is bred the right way, that horse will be very prepotent and you pretty much know what the foal is going to be like when you use that horse for breeding. Pedigree is very important to me in that breed. If I were buying a horse for showing or for pleasure riding/driving, and not for breeding, then I would buy a horse that had the right conformation and prettiness, regardless of what the pedigree was. If I were buying the horse for breeding, I might not buy that particular animal if the pedigree was wrong--if the pedigree is a hodge podge of lines/types, that animal is not going to breed true. You might get a real nice foal, and you might get a dog. For breeding purposes I want a pedigree full of horses I know & like.

In Miniatures, it is less important. As I said, the breed just doesn't have the same consistancy as, for instance, the Morgans. You can have two very well bred, good quality Minis, breed them together 5 times, and you won't know quite what to expect from each of the foals. You're as likely to get a good foal from a parent of unknown breeding as you are from a World or National Champion. That makes a hardshipped horse of unknown parentage worth just as much as any other Miniature that was born into "pedigree".

 

[Marty]

It depends on what I plan to do with the horse. In big horses there are pedigrees I would proably stay away from if they were in the last say two generations of the horse in question. On the other hand, I've had registered horses in my life with papers up the whazoo, and that is exactly what most of those papers meant to me, butt wipe.

The only thing that could bother me in this breed is if I were looking at that horse exclusively for breeding stock. I would want to know the height ranges for safety reasons as far as foaling, and know the backgrounds of the parents, grandparents to check and see if there was a history of bad stifles or legs etc. things that could get passed down and maybe skip a generation.

 

[LaVern]

I think this is going to be one of the most debated topics for some of us miniature breeders for the next couple years. Is it worth it? I don't know. I have said never again. Now as the deadline gets closer???????? I am going to hardship one this summer just to test things.

So many questions and what a poor time to have to make these decisions. Maybe it doesn't matter now if the horse has ten sets of papers, but what about 10 years from now? I have a feeling that once AMHA closes, it will stay closed, but they will begin to take care of their own taller horses. I don't know. It is a head scratcher.

 

[LaVern]

Was going to ad, The only horses that I would consider hardshipping in now would already be full pedigreed horses with Kentucky DNA done on parents and grandparents. and of course it would have to be done with Cal, too. And of course I would have to like the way they looked. Short would not be deciding factor.

 

[LaVern]

Minimor I disagree I think that documented honest pedigree is even more important with the miniatures ,because of the reason you stated,-- lack of consistency. If we want to as individuals or as a group want get to that point we have to keep track of things. I think we have somewhat with Buckeroo. You can spot it. The Buckeroo horses are probably more of a documented breed than a lot of so called breeds. I can tell you what a George foal out of a certain mares is going to look like before it is born.

But as a whole it is going to take many years of recorded history and we do have a better start than a lot of other breeds had especially with AMHA demanding DNA and PQ ing relatively early in conception.

 

[HGFarm]

Would I buy one? Absolutely. Pedigree is nice but I look at the horse itself and decide if it is something I like. If the horse is nice enough, absolutely I would hardship. Who can say it does not make the horse worth more? Of course it does as future offspring can be registered, it can now be shown, etc.... Can't do that with a grade horse.

I did have a horse I hardshipped in at the beginning of this year and yes, I was tearing my hair out as we have no people here currently that can inspect, but I got it done and it was well worth it! She has her pedigree on her R papers, so I know what is behind her anyhow.

I think it's a shame that A doesnt at least recognize a sire and dam or anything about the horses being hardshipped if it is known, however it would not stop me from buying one without a pedigree or from hardshipping one in.

 

[LaVern]

I guess what I am wondering is if you guys think it is worth it monetarily, to hardship the AMHR under 34 pedigreed horses and spending the money and effort to double them up, in the long run. I think that once it closes is will stay closed. If we don't do it now or within the next couple years will we regret it later?

It was easy to say as long as it was still open that I would not do it, because I knew that I could. I know that there is a lot of the people with the tiny Shetlands that are trying like heck to get them in. I don't know it is a lot of money when the horse economy is not the best.