Hardshipping "sale"

[Minimor]

In my view if there is going to be some sort of "certification" on the papers then there will need to be a charge for it. Foundation Shetlands have to have a $10 fee paid to get their seal if they don't have 2 Foundation parents, and I don't feel that $10 is an unreasonable fee for any sort of Miniature seal either.

If you want the "straight" miniatures they are out there, with no shetland blood

Really? Show me a Miniature that has "no Shetland blood" in it!! There may be no ASPC registered ponies on the pedigree but that doesn't mean that the horse has no Shetland blood!

 

[Minimor]

It is not only what I get, but what other AMHR breeders and the AMHR horses get. Validation and the respect we deserve. It says you stuck to it and played it straight with in our own registry. I don't think would affect prices at all and it would not affect the shows.

I believe that 'validation' and 'respect' come from your horses themselves. If people see your animals and like them and you have the reputation of having good, or even great, horses THAT is your validation. Reputation is built on quality of the animals and integrity of the breeder. No seal on the papers can or will give validation to a breeding program if the quality isn't there, and if the quality is there....the seal on the papers isn't needed.

If the purpose of the seal is to enable the horse to show in a separate division, that is another mattter.

For anyone that feels that hardshipping--and especially this hardshipping sale--is going to harm their breeding program or their sales, I don't really see that being the case. In all honesty, what I see harming sales or a breeding program the most is negativity, even bitterness, from the breeder. Negativity is a HUGE turn-off to many people.

 

[Reble]

I am not sure, but is the seal not sort of going to be the same as DNA

Which I still believe will happen one day with AMHR

 

[LaVern]

Why does it bug you to give us a name Minimor? What's it to ya? I'd pay the ten bucks, but then we should charge for putting Hall Of Fame on too and Foundation and Classic and Modern?

 

[Minimor]

Why does it bug you to give us a name Minimor? What's it to ya? I'd pay the ten bucks, but then we should charge for putting Hall Of Fame on too and Foundation and Classic and Modern?

It doesn't bug me in the least to give you a name....I just don't see why that name is so important when there is already a name...AMHR. It does boggle my mind that some apparently believe that without a special name to validate themselves their breeding program isn't worth anything. Please note that I am not saying any breeding program is worth nothing without some sort of seal--that is not what I believe at all! Sorry to say, though, but that is the way you are coming across in this thread!

I just paid $10 to get a Foundation seal on my Ziggy and as I see it a validation seal in any other division, AMHR included, should have to pay the same fee.

I'm not sure what HOF has to do with anything--HOF is a completely different kettle of fish from any Foundation or Heritage seal....HOF is something that is given to anyone that wins the right number of points, it's not something anyone asks for. By all means if you feel that members should pay to win a HOF then do put that into a rule proposal--but don't forget that if you are going to apply it to Classics, Foundations and Moderns then it would almost certainly apply to AMHR as well. That would probably be a very good money maker for the club.

 

[kaykay]

Why does it bug you to give us a name Minimor? What's it to ya? I'd pay the ten bucks, but then we should charge for putting Hall Of Fame on too and Foundation and Classic and Modern?

Do you mean putting HOF on the papers? A foundation seal is 10.00 if the pony is not born with the seal. This covers the office researching and verifying the pedigree and reprinting the paper. Although rumor has it no new seals will be issued in the near future.

Not sure what the comment on classic and foundation means?

The potential increase in AMHR registered horses now and their get later also has the effect of increasing supply, not a good move when prices are as depressed as they currently are. So those of us trying to sell AMHR registered horses could also have to deal with the flush of new competition in an already down market. If I was a shetland pony breeder or an AMHA breeder I may feel differently, I'd jump at the chance to take advantage of this sale. As a breeder of primarily AMHR registered miniature horses I see only an increase in supply coming my way.

Jacki there probably will not be a ton of Shetlands that get to take advantage of this sale since they have to 3 years old to hardship. Why they have to be 3 and AMHA horses can be any age is beyond me.

But I do totally understand what you are saying.

I have always been in favor of closing the AMHR studbook. I also keep wondering if they will when AMHA closes theirs. I also wonder if the sale is because AMHA closes theirs in one year. But then I thought surely AMHA would rescind that but maybe not?

ASPC/AMHR membership has gone down a lot the last 3 years so mainly I think this was to get members etc.

Diane all of the Falabella's I have known already had AMHR papers so I just never understood it. Maybe there are way more out there than I know that dont have AMHR papers?

 

[Sandee]

Ok so I don't breed but for what it's worth, my opinion is that I want a horse that has good temprament, good conformation, and lots of action. Now I don't care what it's papers say personally but I LIKE showing in AMHR so I need it to have those papers. ASPC is all right for showing but I perfer AMHR. If you can breed this "perfect" horse without using Shetland blood - fine, do it. But this is what I look for, what I want, and all I'd buy right now. It's that simple.

No one says you NEED Shetland blood but most breeders are trying to "fill a market need". This is what a big share of "the market" is looking for right now. I think ASPC did this not to get Shetlands registered in AMHR necessarily but to broaden their base and help out some of the people who for $$ reasons might not otherwise register.

 

[Magic]

Kaykay said

"Jacki there probably will not be a ton of Shetlands that get to take advantage of this sale since they have to 3 years old to hardship. Why they have to be 3 and AMHA horses can be any age is beyond me. "

I think that the registry is figuring that an AMHA horse of any age is not very likely to go over the height limit of 38", but that a shetland very well could, so that is likely the reasoning behind having shetlands be at least three years old to be registered AMHR, to make sure that they don't go over the height requirement.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

You guys are making this too hard. I'm not asking for classes or anything to change. Just call the 4 genrers. something.

Then what is your purpose on adding a seal? What would be a advantage of having a seal vs any hardshipped mini or mini shetland. You can call your minis whatever you want to call them but having a seal on their just because I don't see the huge selling point of that. If I was shopping for just an AMHR only mini I won't be looking for one that has that special seal. This was my oringinal point to begin with thats all.

Minimor yes I understand they come from the shetlands. So perhaps we are doing this backwards and we should make all AMHR/ASPC ponies show in their "foundation" divison since the minis originally came from them.

BUT, AMHR is only a height breed. So adding divisons would not benefit the registry. Sorry JMO after thinking about it. If anything divide the halter classes by type. AMHR would be taken more seriously if it was closed. But at this time I think it would be a mistake.

 

[minifreishorsefarm]

I have been watching this thread from the beginning, and must say I have very mixed emotions about it.

 

First of all, let me say that I have NEVER had a complaint against AMHR as an organization or any of the business I have done with them. All of my horses are registered AMHA and AMHR except one exceptional mare that I bought this year that is AMHA only. My problem has been with Shetland breeders who get on this forum and promote the attitude that Shetlands are so superior to Minis and that if you want your horses to be able to compete that you just MUST introduce Shetland into your breeding program. Well, that is NOT what I want. I don't want Morgans, I don't want Walking Horses, I don't want Quarter Horses, and I don't want Shetlands. I want MINIATURES! So, with my need to cut expenses and with this prevailing attitude that you just must have Shetland in your program in order to be competitive, I dropped my AMHR membership in 2011. Why should I waste that money when so many of the R breeders have adopted the attitude that if it isn't Shetland, it just isn't any good? Why should AMHA MINIATURE breeders spend money hardshipping into AMHR to promote Shetlands? Seems to me like money down the drain.

 

I've not totally made up my mind yet, but before I pay a membership fee, the $100 hardship fee, plus the $60 registration fee in order to hardship a mare, someone is going to have to convince me why it is worth it to spend so much money on a horse that so many ASPC/AMHR breeders are going to look down on.

I agree 100%. I dont like the Shetland look for my breeding program either. I think there are a lot of pretty Shetland horses out there, just not what I want for my program. I dont like the long snakey neck look that is popular either. I would never buy any AMHR horse with direct Shetland in their pedigree mainly because I dont want horses that are over 35" and most Shetland will be taller.

I would really like the AMHA to cut the hardship fee as well. I have a few mares here that are under 34" and it would be nice to have them double registered especially since I now have a future stallion that is A & R registered both.

I dont know why everyone is wanting to make all their AMHR horses to look like Shetlands, if you want the Shetland look, buy a Shetland

Marsha

 

[joylee123]

In todays miniature market you NEED those AMHR papers. You might want them double. Great, But we have worked so hard and done such a good job that if you don't have AMHR papers, you basically are very limited.So now that they are finally valuable and the AMHR breeder can finally say, Yes it was all worth while, why start giving them away? And making those papers worthless.

Why can't we get used to holding our heads up and be proud of what we have done? Maybe we area getting too uppidy and we must be put back in our place.

Don't see how adding AMHA horses makes AMHR papers worthless

 

[joylee123]

I see the whole problem with the ASPC, they aren't part of the association, they are the association. They make the rules and they run the show and things are not going to change. To them the AMHR is nothing but a way to make some more money to support the Shetland Pony Club. Let any horse be a registered miniature for a buck. But don't let anyone hardship into the Shetland,because they are special. This was a decision by the board and who are they?

Like Kenny said, "You have to know when to hold em and know when to fold em." I'm folding. I'm done supporting the ASPC . I will take all I can from the AMHR stud books and go my own way.

I will send the stud reports in and my membership fee and reg. when it is necessary. But, no more money and no more sponsorships for stuff, to be sure the Congress has a nice home from me.

And I will advise other straight miniature people to do the same. These papers aren't worth the paper they are written on. Enough.

Shetland is a breed. Miniature is a height.

 

[vvf]

Don't see how adding AMHA horses makes AMHR papers worthless

exactly.... a few years ago I bought an amha ONLY stallion, and if I had not been able to hardship this stallion into AMHR... I would not have bought him.. (just wish they had been running the hardship "sale" then LOL) AMHR means that much to me.

I like how AMHR has their hardship set up... you can't hardship horses that are "unknown" they must come from AMHA or Shetlands, and of course if Shetlands, be 3 or older and within height requirements.

 

[Riverrose28]

Guess I'll add my 2 cents, hopefully you can understand what I'm trying to say. I can understand were LaVern/Renee is coming from. As a long standing breeder of straight up miniature horses there has been a trend in recent years to add ASPC to the minis and that is what is winning in the show ring, especially at Nationals. And yes, as Songcatcher said if you go in the ring with a straight up miniature you usually get the gate, in halter, not so in performance, and then you wonder why you didn't get on the band wagon if you want to show. Seems like the AMHR is a second class horse to the ASPC/AMHR horse and yes it is frustrating especially to our youth and ametuers. I love the AMHR horses my favorites are the "B"'s around 35 to 36"s, but although we do well at the local level we don't do so well at the National level, in halter, against the ASPC/AMHR horses, I've stated this before. I think the straight up minis or foundation minis need their own class.

I also think that adding some AMHA horses to the registry will help those of us with the straight up AMHR minis. Most of mine are already double registered but I do have two mares that are AMHA only that I would take advantage of the reduced fee to get them into AMHR. The reason I think the AMHA horse owners will help is that their horses are more of the straight up minis and the more that show the better.

 

[LaVern]

I didn't realize that it cost 10 bucks to put the foundation seal on. Of course we should have to pay that too, then. But if you get a seal why can't I have one. And I suppose if you didn't want the seal of Heritage you wouldn't have to have it put on. I would. Do the moderns and the classics have to pay to have that written too?

The Show Pony got a name and the Sport Horse got a name. And they are just grades too, why would anyone care if a 4 generation miniature got a name other than A's -B's - Overs -Unders or Only's.

 

[joylee123]

As far as adding AMHA horses to AMHR through the "Hardship sale" I don't see how, as someone mentioned, it's going to ruin AMHR or make AMHR paperwork worthless. People have and are going to continue to hardship AMHA registered horses into AMHR as long as the registry is open to hardshipping, making it a bit more affordable for a year,isn't going to make much difference in the long run.

As far as Shetland infusion;

I normally keep my opinions to myself but I really don't wish to see AMHA or AMHR lose what we have been working so hard for over the years.I think it's a shame seeing what is happening. I'm not putting down Shetlands by any means. I have seen some that are totally breathtakingly beautiful, just stunning in their own right. They are just not what I want the future of the American Miniature Horse to be. It's taken too long to get where we are today to go backward. That being said, I think closing the AMHA registry will help keep the newly infused Shetland influence to a minimum in that registry.

Has anyone thought to propose a Miniature Shetland Division? Keep AMHR AMHR and let the AMHR/ASPC cross have their own Miniature Shetland Registry or 1/2 Shetland Miniature Registry? or something to that effect?

I understand AMHA and AMHR are Height registries, just wish the miniature Shetlands had their own division to be registered into.

Joy

 

[LaVern]

I know I am coming a cross as being mad at the Shetland Ponies, and I am not. I no longer even want to see the Registry closed to them. I am mad at the directors for doing something this important late at night and sort of secretive. I don't think that they intentionally thought of hurting anyone. They just don't think. They can't even phantom that anyone would be just a AMHR breeder .After all these years they still don't even consider how things will affect us. Give the AMHA people a break and kick the AMHR breeder in the ---.

I also have a suspicion that some of this came from AMHA overseas stuff. I guess we have a couple people handling that, maybe they felt sorry for the poor people that spent 30 grand on a horse and now it went over and so they need us to give them a break.

I have to wonder why if they can spend the money I have heard of on buying them and shipping them over, they should need a break from AMHR? I do know of some big AMHA farms that up until the last few years, said no way would they spend the money. Maybe it some of their horses.

The directors should have told them to go to a AMHR breeder in the US or Canada and buy one instead of practically giving them one. Maybe it is part of the Free Trade Agreement, I'll shut up now.

 

[joylee123]

I don't think that they intentionally thought of hurting anyone. They just don't think. They can't even phantom that anyone would be just a AMHR breeder .After all these years they still don't even consider how things will affect us. Give the AMHA people a break and kick the AMHR breeder in the ---.

I guess I just don't understand what you are trying to say. How does allowing a reduced hardshipping fee for a year affect you as a breeder? And how does it kick the AMHR breeder in the ---

Just trying to understand...

Joy

 

[disneyhorse]

I didn't realize that it cost 10 bucks to put the foundation seal on. Of course we should have to pay that too, then. But if you get a seal why can't I have one. And I suppose if you didn't want the seal of Heritage you wouldn't have to have it put on. I would. Do the moderns and the classics have to pay to have that written too?

The Show Pony got a name and the Sport Horse got a name. And they are just grades too, why would anyone care if a 4 generation miniature got a name other than A's -B's - Overs -Unders or Only's.

Hey LaVern...

The Foundations are the only ones who have to pay to get the "Foundation Seal" on the papers, it is $10. However, to SHOW as a Foundation, the ponies ALSO have to be Foundation "type" (slightly heavier bone) AND measure 42" or under instead of 46" which is the maximum for all the other Shetland divisions.

Moderns and Classics do not have to get any sort of validation... depending on what body type and movement they are (some can be borderline) is what the exhibitor chooses to show them in. You actually could Hall of Fame your pony as BOTH a Classic AND a Modern, depending on how to fit and shoe the pony, it's been done before. This is why some people who show Shetlands are trying to explain that it is VERY hard to just show a horse by "type" because it can depend on the training as well as the area. You see this sort of "grey area" in driving too... some horses can show as a Pleasure driving horse locally, but when they get to Nationals they bump their horse down to Country which is not as extreme. You just can't cross enter (as a mini or a Shetland in halter or driving) at the SAME SHOW.

Secondly,

The "Show Pony" (ASPR pony) is kind of a "grade pony" you could say. For $25 you can get papers on a Hackney, a Shetland, or a cross of them. Pretty much just allows your taller ponies to show at the shows, and also encourages "Hackney people" to bring their ponies over to ASPC/AMHR and show at the shows. Personally, I think $25 to get a set of papers on a horse is way too good of a deal! I just bought a Hackney pony gelding(the one in my avatar) that I am going to happily pay the $25 for his ASPR papers!

Think about it this way... at this time I don't have an ASPC or AMHR registered horse... but being able to have the option of showing my pony with the ASPC/AMHR brings my business to them where otherwise I might have nothing to do with them. This correlates to bringing AMHA horses over... the more publicity the better... maybe if I'm showing my Hackney pony as an ASPR and I'm going to the ASPC/AMHR shows, I'll want to expand my show string to show in more classes?

Anyway, just wanted to share some more information with you. I think if you continue to educate yourself to the other nuances of the Registry, it might help your cause.

Andrea

 

[LaVern]

I think you are probably right about becoming more knowledgeable of all the rules within all the different areas, if I were to stay with it, but the unfairness has gotten to be more than I can stand. I wish I could meet a young smart person that I could give the whole works to if they would start a new registry and new breed that was pedigree and look. One simple rule. Honest paper work.

How does it affect me as breeder? Guess a Big Sign Should go up. Lucky Hart Sale. $100.00 ahead for AMHR registered horses because that is all the registry says it takes to get one.