Height discrepancy on purchased horse

[sfmini]

The registries can't get involved legally. They are registries of horses, not enforcers of personal business. The place for this is in the actual legal system, in court.

I am sorry you are in this mess, maybe you should share the name of the horse with us, just sharing the name, picture, and height with no allegations against the breeder/seller, just the facts. The message will get out.

I would only accept the height of a horse if I measure it myself, see video of it being measured, have someone I know and trust measure it.

I am no lawyer, but if those emails state your desires clearly and the responses are not properly representing the horse, you should be able to win in court.

 

[Lloydyne]

I just purchased my dbl registered mini last week. The owner said he was 34" and when we measured him (after he was home) he was over 34" I just wanted a CDE horse so I didn't care and didn't feel like the owner told me wrong. She had shown the horse as 34" so she had to have him measured......horses grow......He had his feet done yesterday and he actually measured under 34" and we were surprised..A lot of difference with just a lil foot removed.

 

[Sue_C.]

When there is a doubt at all, get it in writing.

That is exactly what a signed and dated transfer is...the seller measures the horse at the point of sale...and SIGNS IT. How is that not "in writing" enough?

Many feel the registries should become involved, however, I do not feel this is the case. The reason I say so is that so many of these transactions would turn into a "he said / she said" type of scenario. Most people do not have purchase / sales contracts and why on earth would a registry want to lend itself to policing these pretty much "no-win" situations?

"He said/she said" would only come into play had there NOT BEEN a signed transfer to the AMHA from the seller. Im my opinion, to sign that transfer with the wrong height is committing FRAUD...how is it that cannot be considered so by the AMHA? Why DO we sign the transfer if not to protect the buyer and seller???

The registries can't get involved legally. They are registries of horses, not enforcers of personal business.

True...perhaps not "legally", but they CAN AND DO have the power to SUSPEND membership. this is done alllll the time. it IS TIME the registry stood behind the members being ripped off by FRAUDULENT BREEDERS/SELLER, who blow smoke and laugh all the way to the bank, hiding behind the registries petty-coats.

 

[Jill]

These issues have existed for years, and the registries have not shown any inclination to step to this plate. I cannot see how it would benefit them (the registries) to do so.

 

[sfmini]

If you feel the registries should do something, then find the rule in the rulebook that is being broken and file a complaint.

 

[minimomNC]

Well, it seems like its not "writing" enough. When you enter into an agreement where you never lay your hand on a horse, get a contract in writing on every single issue that could occur with the horse in question. If the horse doesn't measure, get a height guarantee. If your buying a breeding stallion, get a testicle guarantee. If your buying a broodmare, get a breeding soundness guarantee. If your buying a driving horse, get a video first and then a guarantee. An honest seller will give you everything, a dishonest one won't. If they don't, don't buy the horse. It is that simple. There are so many horses for sale right now, that if one doesn't work, there are a dozen or so more out there just like it. And with the numbers still being bred, no one should settle. If you have something in particular in mind to do with the new horse, make sure you get it in writing. Ask for a video, have it show the horse standing up to be measured, have it trot in the halter, have it trot in a pasture. Make sure you can see the horse walk straight to you and straight away from you. Ask for everything you would ask for if you were standing there with the seller.

Its getting to where so many people are surprised at getting a bad deal, when its posted on LB all the time. Why is anyone shocked if you don't ask for proof of anything. It will always be a buyer beware market, so do your homework first. If the horse is gone before you can decide, then it wasn't meant to be your horse in the first place and go on to the next one.

 

[Minimor]

So there is a transfer that says 34". Seller says 34" and buyer says 36". The registry cannot take any action--they would have to send an official to measure the horse before they could make any ruling. There is absolutely nothing in the rules of either registry that makes any provision for the registry to go and measure horses to settle a dispute. Buyer and seller disagree on height--that is a he said/ she said issue--there is no proof. A signed transfer is not proof--it is one side claiming that height. Maybe it is right, maybe it is wrong, but the registry is not in a position to determine that.

The earlier post was correct--this becomes a civil matter and must be settled in an actual courtroom. See a lawyer and file a suit against the seller. Get your measurement witnesses/experts to testify on your behalf and let the seller defend himself.

For those who say the registry should suspend the seller just on the word of the buyer...think about that carefully. Would you like to sell a horse and then the registry suspends you because the buyer complained that something--anything--about the horse was not as you had claimed? I think then you would sing a different tune and cry that the registry can't do that without some sort of proof or further investigation.

 

[shorthorsemom]

I think that height differences are just the tip of the iceberg IMO. I don't breed, but I do listen and pay attention. I know of someone who got a mare with gorgeous bloodlines from a reputable breeder only to find the bite was not only off, but the whole jaw was twisted. I know of someone who leased a stallion based on his web photos and when he arrived he was not attractive, taller, and barely resembled his photos. I remember saying about the mare that I couldn't believe the breeder never looked in her mouth. She had had foals, how could you get an equine dentist and not know the mare had a horrible bite. I will never breed that is for sure, its not for sissies like me. I got taken once badly when I purchased a pony for my kids to ride. I paid $1200 for this bomb proof pony. Pony was very calm and a bit lazy, I thought this would be a great starter pony for my kids equating slow with safety. Next day I had a horrible bratty kicking stinker pony that was not safe and it would come at you with both back kicking and squeeling. I called the person and they played the "huh? not my pony" game, and denied the pony had any issues. I am sure the pony was drugged now. I went to see the pony in person and took a friend to evaluate the pony so I thought I did everything possible to prevent being taken for a "ride". My husband is convinced that honest horse people are few and far between, however I gave away that pony for free with full disclosure on what problems with the pony because I couldn't honestly sell that pony with a clear conscience. I went in person and got taken, but would be scared to death to buy anything from a distance. There are plenty of people out there that have A sized horses that measure well over. I think this is very common in minis. Some minis continue to grow until they are 4-5 years old too. blabbing, sorry folks.. cheers.

 

[Margo_C-T]

If it's important(as in, I would ever want to 'breed show'or be able to 'measure in' as a VSE), I would no longer accept any other person's measurement as a basis for purchase, UNLESS I was standing right there and could verify it as done.

Accurate measurement begins w/ a PROVABLY level surface; I personally believe that many do NOT have access to such, so you can be defeated before you begin. IF and WHEN you have that, there is also: an accurate/official measuring stick, knowing and DOING what constitutes 'standing up square', with head in a normal, natural position, keeping hands off horse and pressure off lead. For all this you must KNOW the measurement rules, scrupulously follow them...AND, have a horse who has been taught to have MANNERS in hand(which is job one of the handler/trainer/owner; IMO, it is NEVER an 'excuse' that the horse 'wouldn't stand still'...). Finally, the horse should have a PROPERLY trimmed foot for an ACCURATE measurement...I mean, NOT overlong toes and/or heels, but NEITHER a horse trimmed too SHORT(thus requiring masking painkilling drugs, which are both illegal AND UNETHICAL), and which is cruel to the horse. You may have the questionable 'luxury' of leaving extra length ONLY when the horse is comfortably UNDER the maximum allowed height; even then, what about the effect on the horse's tendons/ligaments...soundness, both present and future,by such practices??

All this said, I am always bemused by the 'possible justifications' that are presented by various posters EVERY time this subject is brought up here(and I have seen it come up numerous times in my over-13 years as a member.)I have NEVER personally experienced having a horse 'measure tall' because it was tense, cold, hadn't been 'worked' first, etc., etc., etc. Not saying it is NEVER possible, but I believe, not nearly as likely as often suggested-and why would you not give ANY horse a chance to be 'naturally' more relaxed,and/or warmed up a bit, before you'd attempt to measure it, IF you believe that might make a difference?

I HAVE personally experienced AND observed that it is 'possible'for moving the horse around and remeasuring to make a 1/4" difference, and in VERY rare cases, I have observed a nearly 1/2" variation...but nothing like the difference as has been found here. I am convinced that there really is NO WAY that any of the 'possible explanations' mentioned within this thread would make a full TWO INCH difference; on most 'actually' 34" horses, that would be more than roughly 2/3 of the entire 'proper' front length(coronet to edge of toe)on an 'average' and 'normal' length hoof!

To the OP: I am very sorry this happened to you; afraid it is sadly true nowadays that you need to get EVERYTHING in writing, as suggested by some. You also may find it necessary to take legal action in civil court, if that's in any way feasible.If you think it possible to work out w/ the seller, continue to politely try? If this doesn't help... as sfmini suggested, perhaps share the name and description/registration number of the horse you bought recently, w/o additional comment? I know this is a tough position in which you find yourself.

Best wishes,

Margo

 

[Jean_B]

The transfer is not a contract. It does not spell out how one party is to make the other "whole" if certain terms are not met.

When I sell a horse with a height guarantee - I spell it out how it is to be determined that the horse does not meet the height requirement of the contract. Here is an example for one that I wrote where the buyer was on the opposite side of the country:

"Seller warrants that this horse shall not exceed 34” at the last hairs of the mane. This guarantee expires _______(specific date). If the horse exceeds 34” (as measured by a licensed steward of AMHR), horse may be returned to Dusty Lane Miniatures for a farm credit (trade for a horse of equal value at a time & place that is convenient to both such as AMHR Nationals or AMHA World show)."

I never accept any person's word that the horse measures over (it's AMAZING how poorly the untrained person will measure) - and AMHA does not have licensed/trained stewards so therefore I specify it MUST be an AMHR licensed steward.

Also, when selling a colt for future breeding stallion - I ALWAYS give a testicle guarantee:

"Seller warrants that this horse shall have two viable and descended testicles before _____(specific date). If both testicles have not descended by that date, the horse may be returned to Dusty Lane Miniatures for a farm credit as outlined in item number 2."

And I DO stand behind my contracts, even go above and beyond. Once sold a filly that had not yet been weaned. Buyer was unable to take possession for a couple of months after weaning and during that period of time the filly died due to a twisted gutt. It clearly stated in my contract that should something like that happen that it was the buyer's loss since the filly had been weaned and ready to leave several months earlier. But I gave her a filly that I never in a million years wanted to sell (a double Vegas daughter).

 

[disneyhorse]

I do think horses can measure all over the place. I owned a gelding, Buck Ons Jedi Knight Star, that I showed as a B for the first three years of his life. As a three year old, he normally measured around 35.25" for his halter and driving classes, locally and at Nationals. The past couple years, I've watched him at Nationals (won Grand pleasure driving!) in the under 34" classes. Driving, so obviously not trimmed as short as unethical... But you see it can certainly happen!!!

 

[sfmini]

AMHA does have an official licensing program for measurers. I have my card as do many others.

I also hear they are working on a stewards program as well.

 

[HGFarm]

Again, I would see if the seller will make it right and take the horse back and refund your money, or I would pursue as a civil matter. Regardless of all the excuses people come up with, it was blatantly wrong, and you were duped.

 

[Jean_B]

AMHA does have an official licensing program for measurers. I have my card as do many others.

I also hear they are working on a stewards program as well.

I did not realize that. I stand corrected. I had measured for a bunch of AMHA shows over the years and never had a card...maybe I should work on getting that.