Heindl show carts

[MiLo Minis]

First: Keely, I don't believe anyone is attacking anyone here. Although Bob's first comment on the thread was a bit snide, I didn't feel attacked.

2nd: Bob, I haven't made any assumptions about you. As I said, I don't know you at all and can only go by what I have read from your posts on the forum here. The only comment that I made in reference to you at all was that you seemed kind - if that "impugned your character" then please forgive me.

If you could explain to me where I have been in error I might perhaps understand your comment? I have always felt that everyone is entitled to have their own opinion and I have mine about the Hyperbike. I know the first time I went to your site there weren't any such disclaimers as discussed here and I can only assume there is a reason for them and if it wasn't me then obviously there are others who feel the same way about your vehicle. As to when it was that you included the disclaimers, I am not really sure because I haven't gone to your site very many times as I have seen from photos posted here that your cart hasn't changed much if at all since the first time I viewed it, at least not in the way I would want it to be changed

Third: All of the horses that have been trained by me at my barn are taught as solid a whoa as they possibly can be. I can hitch and unhitch my horses out in the middle of a field without fear of them moving off on their own volition and I also train as well as I can for them to stand even in moments of stress such as things moving around their feet. They completely ignore my 4 Jack Russells scooting around underneath them at any given moment, flapping tarps, umbrellas, etc. but I have not figured out a way to prevent them from moving from pain such as a bee sting without being considered unnecessarily cruel. Things like that happen, I have seen it first hand and more than once - even twice on one day once! Both times that day caused an accident where the cart went over, one resulting in injury. My horses know when to turn it on or off as best as can be expected. We do have to remember that they are sentient beings with their own minds.

4th: I like easy entry pipe carts BECAUSE they are easy to get in and out of. I use them strictly for training and have many times been very glad that I can get in and out quickly and easily without fear of tripping over the shafts or anything else. I find that that sticky kind of open weave shelf liner material makes a great seat liner to keep you from sliding and have used it on many different leather/vinyl seats on vehicles of all descriptions but have never worried about it much on the easy entry because I don't use that style of cart for much other than starting a green horse in the shafts or a trip down the road for fun and exercise. I did once take one in a ditch and had to put my hand on the horse's rump to keep myself in the cart but I think I would have been in the same boat with ANY cart.

Last but not least: Yes this was a question about the Heindl carts. I have gone ahead and purchased one on the hopeful assumption that the Heindl show cart will be as good as what others have said their other carts are. Being that it will be used for many different horses for my clients it is pretty plain jane - black with silver pinstriping.

I have to say this has turned into a much more interesting post than I had expected

Things to consider when purchasing a cart.....

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

I got written up in our Saddle & Harness club newsletter as an "offender" for having an "unattended stallion" at one show - although he was "unattended" unintentionally, and for less than a minute. Both my groom and I assumed the other "had" Appy and we each took a few steps away in different directions before we realized that no one was holding him.

However - he HAS been taught to stand still, and he never moved a muscle while "unattended"!

My professional carriage driving friend used to lecture me on safety every time I did something with Appy that wasn't as it should be, but the last time we met up at the local arena to drive, and I was harnessing Apps while he was groundtied and facing her two mares tied to her trailer, she just said "I'm NOT looking at you!" - and then she sent a mare over to be bred to Appy.

Teaching them to stand and only go when you say is a GREAT thing. I do nothing important with any size horse unless and until they know what "HO" means.

 

[Knottymare]

This thread may have taken a turn but I learned a lot from the discussion. I learned that I have a LOT to learn LOL!

 

[MiLo Minis]

And there is virtually nothing to put your feet on to brace against. Never mind that the ride stinks, as well. Every major bump is applied to the horse's mouth and his body. How anyone gets any effective training done in them is beyond me.

I know of some big horse carts that require you to step on a foot pad on the axle, swing your leg over the back of the seat or bring your foot up between the wheel and the seat. THAT is a disaster of an entry method.......I know why the groom's boots are the tall "hunt type" ones, because my calf got smacked by the wheel! The George IV is a four-wheel vehicle that requires that the driver mount in between the wheels, as most four-wheelers. You are SOL if the horse moves off while you are there. Actually, anytime you mount in front of the wheel, you are risking getting ran over. If you mount from the rear, you risk the horse moving off before you can get settled! My point is that all carts/vehicles have their inerrant risks.

The best thing to do? Teach your horse to stand well, as Lori mentioned. Teach your horse to trust you even if something bad happens (bee sting, etc.). Don't jack with your horse so that he doesn't trust you. Don't "fuss" when entering a cart. Get on with it and get seated as quickly as possible no matter how you get in. Get good equipment. Get educated!

Myrna (who wrote more for the masses than for Lori....)

Although you said you didn't write for me Myrna

I want to comment on a couple things in your reply.

No matter which cart you decide to buy it is important that it fit BOTH you and your horse. I have short little legs being less than 5 feet tall so when I go cart shopping, particularly for an easy entry, it needs to have a short enough basket that I can brace my feet up against the front of it. I have seen many easy entries that have such a long basket few could sit in them properly - not a good choice. Not everyone is comfortable in my carts though. Funny story - one of my clients is a woman who is well over 6 feet tall. She had a cart custom made for herself and wanted me to use it to train her horse so that he would be comfortable with it. I have a photo of me in the cart and I look just like (okay I am going to date myself badly now) Ruth Buzzy on Laugh-In when she played the little girl! I only hitched him in that cart towards the end of his training and only for short periods of time. It neither fit me, was well balanced with me in it, nor was it comfortable for me to drive yet it suited her to a T.

When driving it is important to keep your arms relaxed so that your hands are independant from your body just as when you are riding. If you are stiff and doing a rising trot in the saddle your hands would be going up and down with your body - not good. It is just the same when driving. You take up the shocks with your fluid arms and hands so that your horse isn't feeling the bumps in his mouth. A properly balanced and correctly sized cart will also take up the shocks from the horses body. I quite often get in the cart with people during lessons and then the cart is not necessarily properly balanced so I have to keep those sessions short so the poor horse doesn't suffer too much. I get out as quickly as I can.

That is why back in the days there were grooms to head the horses till everyone was seated and why today there are a certain number of people required to show certain vehicles in carriage driving. With some vehicles a groom IS a necessity. I wouldn't choose, for myself, those vehicles as a safe vehicle for driving singly without a header. I personally think that Meadowbrooks with a seat that opens to enter from the back is also an unsafe vehicle. My point is that there are safer vehicles to choose from so why not choose them.

 

[MiLo Minis]

unless you buy an easy entry (which is much less safe once you are in it), you have to step over or into almost any cart.

Being close to the horse without a crossbar is traditional (and not seen as particularly unsafe) on most race bikes and sulkies.

With any cart, you will have moments entering/exiting where you are less safe than if you were seated in the cart driving.

Also wanted to comment on a couple things you said Keely

Figure if this post is gonna go off track I might as well keep it going WAY OFF as a learning thread. Jeez....ask a simple question.....

The best or safest way to mount a Mini show vehicle is to sit on the seat from behind and quickly swing your legs over the shafts and into the basket and to dismount just reverse that. Yes, as I mentioned earlier, mounting or dismounting ANY vehicle is the most dangerous time but with this method of entry you are most likely to go off the back of the cart if anything happens and be left relatively unscathed. Standing up and stepping into the basket leaves you in a more vulnerable position if the horse should move and it also suddenly puts all your weight onto the horses back which can easily make him decide to move. This is the reason you must get seated quickly in an easy entry with a seat back. You HAVE to step onto the floor boards to enter the cart. Be prepared before mounting and get seated ASAP!

Sulky actually refers to the fact that the vehicle has a single seat and the driver was considered to be sulky in that he preferred to drive alone

They were originally 4 wheeled vehicles with a single seat set on the shafts. Most that I have ever seen or driven in (I used to jog horses on the Standdardbred tracks years ago) for off track use do have a crossbar but it isn't the fact that there is nothing between you and the horse that I object to with a Hyperbike. That part I think is kinda neat because it brings you close to the horse and gives you more of a "riding" feel which you can also get with a sulky. With sulkies you can enter the same way as I described with a show cart - you don't have to step between the horse and the shafts to mount or dismount.

 

[Knottymare]

I frequently hear that the harness and cart should "fit" the horse and the driver... how is that possible when purchasing online? It's not like we have a cart dealer around LOL... being entirely new to this, I am not even sure where to start.

I will be on a budget and want to get as inexpensive a set up as I can to start out but also want to have well fitting, safe and functional equipment! How do we even start at this?

Thanks for taking this thread down the path of education!

 

[keely2682]

maybe you can find forum members near you who will let you look at and sit in their carts?

i always welcome beginners and am happy to share advice, so i'm sure you can find someone near you to help

or

certain brands of carts are known to have more leg room, a higher seat...

if you share your height, inseam... on the forum someone of similar stature who drives might have suggestions on what works for them

 

[Knottymare]

maybe you can find forum members near you who will let you look at and sit in their carts?

i always welcome beginners and am happy to share advice, so i'm sure you can find someone near you to help

or

certain brands of carts are known to have more leg room, a higher seat...

if you share your height, inseam... on the forum someone of similar stature who drives might have suggestions on what works for them

Thanks... good idea. I'm going to attend an even mid month that should have a lot of carts at it. I believe Leia will be there! I'll hit her up

After I get back, I'll post my stats and start shopping!

 

[RhineStone]

I frequently hear that the harness and cart should "fit" the horse and the driver... how is that possible when purchasing online? It's not like we have a cart dealer around LOL... being entirely new to this, I am not even sure where to start.

That is why it is ABSOLUTELY necessary to purchase your equipment from someone who knows what they are doing. There are entirely too many distributers out there that basically know that they sell a "mini cart", and that's it. They wouldn't know how to measure a horse if one came up and bit them! That is also why it is very important that new drivers get a coach, even if it is just a more-experienced driver in a local driving club, who can help measure the horse properly, and make educated suggestions about good quality equipment.

It may take a while, but ADS is right now working on gathering information from it's members about who would like to be listed on the ADS Regional webpages in a Trainer/Instructor listing. We hope to be able to steer new drivers in the direction of choosing someone in their area to help them. ADS will not "endorse" trainers, but just make this information available. We know there are "trainers and instructors" out there, but some of them are "hiding", especially for some of us that are connected to a larger world, but don't know specific areas well. Stay tuned!

Myrna

 

[susanne]

...I'm going to attend an even mid month that should have a lot of carts at it...

If you're referring to the NWMHC Schooling Show in Longview, be sure to say hi -- we plan on taking at least one horse, possibly two. Not that I'm one to tell you much about carts, of course.

 

[MiLo Minis]

As far as a harness goes I would recommend Ozark Mtn. Their harnesses are reasonable for the quality you get no matter which one of theirs you choose. I would get the best one you can afford though. It won't be money wasted because it will last you a long time. Ask for opinions here on the forum for carts and harnesses - that's what we are here for!

 

[MiLo Minis]

That is why it is ABSOLUTELY necessary to purchase your equipment from someone who knows what they are doing. There are entirely too many distributers out there that basically know that they sell a "mini cart", and that's it. They wouldn't know how to measure a horse if one came up and bit them! That is also why it is very important that new drivers get a coach, even if it is just a more-experienced driver in a local driving club, who can help measure the horse properly, and make educated suggestions about good quality equipment.

It may take a while, but ADS is right now working on gathering information from it's members about who would like to be listed on the ADS Regional webpages in a Trainer/Instructor listing. We hope to be able to steer new drivers in the direction of choosing someone in their area to help them. ADS will not "endorse" trainers, but just make this information available. We know there are "trainers and instructors" out there, but some of them are "hiding", especially for some of us that are connected to a larger world, but don't know specific areas well. Stay tuned!

Myrna

That is very good advice Myrna and also wonderful news!!! What a great resource that will be for your ADS members and new drivers! Hopefully they will get something like that going here in Canada as well.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Figure if this post is gonna go off track I might as well keep it going WAY OFF as a learning thread. Jeez....ask a simple question.....

*looks sheepish* Well...I didn't have any information on your original topic! Sorry!

The best or safest way to mount a Mini show vehicle is to sit on the seat from behind and quickly swing your legs over the shafts and into the basket and to dismount just reverse that. Yes, as I mentioned earlier, mounting or dismounting ANY vehicle is the most dangerous time but with this method of entry you are most likely to go off the back of the cart if anything happens and be left relatively unscathed. Standing up and stepping into the basket leaves you in a more vulnerable position if the horse should move and it also suddenly puts all your weight onto the horses back which can easily make him decide to move.

I agree that this would be safest but have never managed to make it work. Something about the combination of a wingback velvet seat and the sorts of slacks and skirts I show in just makes for one big tangled up wedgie!

I mount my easy entry and my Bellcrown from the side and it's easiest for me to mount all my carts the same way so whether it's the Hyperbike, a roadster cart, a sleigh or a gig I step in quickly and smoothly from the left and get my butt down on that seat as quickly as possible. Even in the Hyperbike I have that down to under three seconds. Three seconds of danger compared to spending my entire drive trying not to slide off the back of the flat seat...yep. I prefer having a seatback or at the very least a wingback cushion! I had ONE cart with a flat vinyl seat that I could slide onto from the rear like you do and I quickly sold it because I nearly came out of that cart every time we hit a bump or the horse lunged forward. I know the original Hyperbike had a low plastic scoop seat you could probably mount the way you prefer, maybe that would be an option for some people. For me it's not secure enough.

Thanks... good idea. I'm going to attend an even mid month that should have a lot of carts at it. I believe Leia will be there! I'll hit her up

I will be! Me and the kids are looking forward to it. Kody's dying to get back to work and Turbo's going to try and kick butt in the halter classes.

No matter what we're going to have a good time.

I won't be bringing more than one of my carts but you're welcome to come up to my house and try others when the weather improves. Mostly you'll see show carts at this event (no CDE carts or Hyperbikes or wooden road carts for instance) but there'll probably be some easy entries you can try too.

I frequently hear that the harness and cart should "fit" the horse and the driver... how is that possible when purchasing online? It's not like we have a cart dealer around LOL... being entirely new to this, I am not even sure where to start.

It isn't easy but it's quite possible. The hard part is finding one that's perfectly comfortable for you because that's the part you can't get from measurements! For fitting the horse you can generally give the manufacturer the height of your horse, an idea of how she's built, and go from there. When choosing a size for wooden wheels you'll want to measure how high the shafts need to sit on your horse (measuring from the middle of her side to the ground) and the manufacturer can usually figure out how big the wheel can be to put the shafts at that height. There are certain standard shaft lengths that typically work and you don't usually get to select the width of the cart so wheel size and shaft length are the usual variables. Some carts will allow you to choose the width between the shafts as well but if that's possible the manufacturer will usually discuss that with you.

For making it fit the driver, well...you talk to other drivers about some of the standard carts, sit in as many as you can to find out what you like and what you don't, buy the best, most adjustable cart you can afford and be prepared to modify it! Fitting driving equipment is a never-ending occupation for most of us. Every time you get it set you buy a new harness or a new horse and have to start all over again.

It's a fine art and one I enjoy.

Leia

 

[uwharrie]

I found this out the hard way this past fall with a dog attack. Any suggestions on how to make the bench seat more secure? (cant afford to replace the EE at this point)

Easy entry is also easy exit! You are almost always safer if you can stay with the cart than if you are ejected. And staying with the cart is ALWAYS safer for spectators, as a loose horse with a weapon attached is definitely a safety hazard! If you can't stop the horse from the box, you sure aren't going to do it by getting out of the cart. I have seen some great horsemen stop a horse after being dumped from the cart, but I have also seen novice drivers watch their cart get trashed while the horse runs loose because they "let go".

Myrna (who wrote more for the masses than for Lori....)

 

[Sue_C.]

I found this out the hard way this past fall with a dog attack. Any suggestions on how to make the bench seat more secure? (cant afford to replace the EE at this point)

I made a seat cover of waffle-weave (rubber) material held on with elastic and velcro. Works like a charm...I intend to add sides to it this spring to make it into a marathon seat/pad kind of thing. Several friends of mine have simply removed the Naugahyde and replaced it with material, the seats are very easy to reupholster.

 

[keely2682]

I agree that this would be safest but have never managed to make it work. Something about the combination of a wingback velvet seat and the sorts of slacks and skirts I show in just makes for one big tangled up wedgie! I mount my easy entry and my Bellcrown from the side and it's easiest for me to mount all my carts the same way so whether it's the Hyperbike, a roadster cart, a sleigh or a gig I step in quickly and smoothly from the left and get my butt down on that seat as quickly as possible. Even in the Hyperbike I have that down to under three seconds. Three seconds of danger compared to spending my entire drive trying not to slide off the back of the flat seat...yep. I prefer having a seatback or at the very least a wingback cushion! I had ONE cart with a flat vinyl seat that I could slide onto from the rear like you do and I quickly sold it because I nearly came out of that cart every time we hit a bump or the horse lunged forward.

I agree!

 

[RhineStone]

Something about the combination of a wingback velvet seat and the sorts of slacks and skirts I show in just makes for one big tangled up wedgie!

:rofl

 

[Annabellarose]

I OBVIOUSLY missed something, but I was still shocked and disappointed to read those first off-topic "jabs".

I frequently hear that the harness and cart should "fit" the horse and the driver...how is that possible when purchasing online? It's not like we have a cart dealer around LOL...being entirely new to this, I am not even sure where to start.
I will be on a budget and want to get as inexpensive a set up as I can to start out but also want to have well fitting, safe and functional equipment! How do we even start at this?

Thanks for taking this thread down the path of education!

You do as others have already suggested and "ask around" and collect as much advice and as many opinions as you can and, sometimes, you just have to learn the hard way, unfortunately. You bite the bullet, place your order, and you either try your best to make it fit safely (you may have to trim your shafts or buy a different size wheel, etc.) or you scrap it and sell it to someone that can use it and you try again. I have already had to do both.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I OBVIOUSLY missed something, but I was still shocked and disappointed to read those first off-topic "jabs".

Me too, but as usual the great folks on this forum took it back in a more positive and educational direction.

Leia

 

[Carriage]

Well I'll apologize for my part in the dust-up and admit that my initial response was "snide". Missed in the mix was that my remark was in RESPONSE to the same thing. Still I should be more mature and not care. Still working on that.

That being said and to address Miss Lori's desire for a different seating arrangement.

I have built two rigs over its 15 ( I know its not as long as Jerald) year lifespan that allowed the driver to enter from the rear and then swivel forward. In both cases there was no other alternative. Neither cart had a seat back that would fold down backwards from vertical. We could go into treatise of why I believe this to be a bad and problematic approach however I will say that as of this point I've seen nothing that would cause me to want to do that on a high performance cart and ESPECIALLY on this one.

Also in both cases, a header was absolutely necessary due to the disabilities being addressed. The necessity of a header present for mounting this cart in this manner GREATLY diminished my liability. Indeed it was the ONLY reason I agreed to do it.

Mounting this cart from the rear and swinging around forward puts a DRAMATIC lift on the horse without a header managing the shaft lift.. More so than any other cart made (tmk). As a mfr and horse lover I will NOT do that or advise to do that because it is wrong for the horse. Think excessive lift might cause a horse to move or worse. Odds would tend to favor it. This rig is not built to enter that way. The very things that give this rig so much ability and advantage for the horse, also preclude this type of entry as prudent. The safest way to mount this rig is from the side, in front of the wheel, smoothly, quickly and with a rock solid trained horse AND driver. Also our drivers completely understand these attributes and are PREPARED for the possibility that things could happen. It is being prepared that allows them to mitigate the possible danger. Also they are in a better position to mitigate a problem due to their intimate stance with both horse and cart. I think that any seasoned 'Biker will agree in general with the above statements because they intimately know their horse and gear in a way that the uninitiated simply cannot. Blowing things clear out of proportion, specifically your insistence that something can go wrong one time in a thousand grates because it is unfairly applied and held up in shrillness as it WILL happen and I hope people don't die....... If your position is correct and fairly applied you are pretty much afraid of everything because something "could" happen with everything.

I will not build the seating arrangement you desire because, with this rig, it is wrong. One cannot apply the usual rules and givens with this rig. It won't work.

Miss Lori once I knew your point of contention, I let all the stuff go because we aggressively address your point of issue through-out the entire process. I just got a little tired of hearing these never defined "safety concerns" from somebody with very little or NO experience with the rig. Once I knew the problem, all the other misstatements became irrelevant even though they chaffed and I didn't really like other people believing those things about us and what we do..

You still sounded skeptical that I could learn something without your tutelage however it is true and happens all the time, because I am always seeking to be and build better.

While I have coveted endorsement in the past, I don't seek it out any more. I am not seeking approval, I already have it with the folk that matter most to me. I would merely like the false statements and exaggerated "safety concerns" to cease. If it is your opinion, whether knowledge based or not, it should have a disclaimer stating such just as you are always insisting from us at nearly every turn. Also understand that at some point in the process when you behave this way, some folk will stand up to bullying behavior and say enough.

I understand and appreciate your PERSONAL concern fully. This rig is not for you. I would ONLY want you doing what is best for you and your horse. Now you can continue with this if you choose, but I've wasted enough time on it for sure and do apologize for my original comment. Whether "deserved" or not, I wish that I had not....

I like your color scheme. Understated has a beauty all its own and would compliment and turn focus to the horse which is where it should be. Can't wait to see it.

Bb

Graham Carriage Works