Hospitals these days are terrible!

[Jill]

Jill - I may be a bit late to the discussion, but as others have pointed out, you have bought into a lot of propaganda (for want of a better word) with that statement. The truth - and not the propaganda - is that YES you would have likley been seen in much the same time frame or maybe even sooner - it is all on an individual case basis, after all. My best friend in Canada went to her doctor about a lump in her neck. TWO DAYS LATER she was in surgery (with a top notch surgeon) for her thyroid and had a malignant tumour removed. Only the propaganda would have you believe that she waited for weeks and weeks....

Not true.

The truth is there are good and bad hospitals/ERs everywhere - as Marty and others have related. But blanket statements/assumptions like the one you made seem to ignore that fact.

I have been "under" both systems. And I know which one worked best for me. Not the one here in WA that has emptied my bank account (and yes, I have as much insurance as I can afford) and all but guaranteed that I will never be able to retire or be secure financially. I am very glad that you are doing well now, but just because you personally will never have to face that kind of medical bill-induced financial crisis does not meant that it does not happen - and I am far from the only one in this position...

Tag, with all the respect you're due, it sounds to me like you're the one who drank the kool aid (propaganda).

You'd be hard pressed to find someone who pays closer attention to the news (print, tv and radio) than I do, not to mention my life experience, and the conversations I've had with my own doctors and my clients who are medical professionals. I know there's a reason:

• Most Americans on this thread have said that if you think things are bad now, just wait -- they're about to get worse.
• Danny Williams, a Canadian Official, came to the USA this past February seeking heart surgery.
• The majority of the American public does not favor a universal healthcare plan.
• Historically people who live in nations with National / Universal healthcare who can afford to get care in the USA, come here for just that reason (just like Danny Williams).
• The UK's system, the one the USA's is slated to most closely resemble, is in tremendous trouble with reports this week about about the UK planning to decentralize their system and that most basic treatment there is or will be rationed.
• Those of us who have parents or close relatives covered by Medicare know about the cutbacks in Doctor reimbursement and the restrictions and hoops those covered by this socialized form of healthcare are forced to go through.

The USA currently is the source of the best healthcare in the World. Regardless of how you personally feel about it, I'm not even going to entertain a debate on that reality because I feel it's like discussing if the Easter bunny will or will not visit my house next spring. The world class status of US Healthcare is subject to charge for the worse soon. This is due to recent legislation that will result in National / Universal / Socialized care -- legislation that is widely unpopular among the American voters. The only redeeming factor if this does go into place is that currently, it is not outlined to be a single payer healthcare system like the one in Canada.

 

[tagalong]

Tag, with all the respect you're due, it sounds to me like you're the one who drank the kool aid (propaganda).

No Jill - I have LIVED both sides of the debate. You have not. I truly have lived what I am talking about. I am over-skeptical and over-cynical - and always have been. I never drink any of the propaganda kool-aid - no matter who is serving it or what "side" they are on. I could care less. What I do care about is the facts - and those are often hard to come by in the river of rhetoric that politicians (all of them) and the media make us wade through. I truly have walked the walk on both sides of this debate... and waded through that rhetoric.

You'd be hard pressed to find someone who pays closer attention to the news (print, tv and radio) than I do, not to mention my life experience, and the conversations I've had with my own doctors and my clients who are medical professionals.

You seem to be assuming that I do not pay close attention to the media (ALL media - not just one side or one point of view) ... or that I must be ignorant about the issues.

My opinions and concerns are based on my actual experiences and those of my friends and family - including many working in the healthcare system here and in Canada. I am sorry that you discount that - and feel that my financial situation due to emergency medical bills is merely "propaganda". I am glad that you will never have to face that uncertain future. It is not a good feeling. I will respectfully suggest that you take a step back occasionally and try to see the concerns that others have expressed. I have seen health care myths spread abut Canada that are simply untrue - and yet they are assumed to be facts. You just assumed that no one in Canada could have been treated in the same time frame or had the same quality of care that you had. Not true, as I said. Time frames and care vary all over the place - even here. Someone in Missouri (just picking a state at random) may not have had the same level of care you had. Or even someone in VA at another facility.

The system is Canada is not perfect by any means. Nor is the system - or lack of one - here.

And I think you missed this part of my post.... I'll bold it...

The truth is there are good and bad hospitals/ERs everywhere

Everywhere. Here. In Canada. In Australia. Wherever....

 

[Tab]

I have heard more than one Canadian defending their free health care. However, our health care bill was passed without full knowledge of what it contains/entails. "We have to pass the bill to know what's in it" -Nancy Pelosi

That ought to raise a few red flags.

 

[Jill]

Tag, as usual, I've paid as much attention to your posts as I wanted to, and I have stated my feelings as well as I am able to. If you want to continue what has become a political debate, maybe join a social networking site? You can find me on the real popular one, just like here, using my real name and my real face. You'll also find my "wall" to be full of information. You may have lived in both Canada and the USA, however, I do not think that or anything else you said indicates you are more knowledgeable regarding the topic of healthcare than I am. Just as opinionated? Probably. More informed? I doubt it.

 

[tagalong]

Jill - I am not the one trying to make any of this political as you wish. Not in any way. In fact, if you were not being dismissive of my posts, concerns and experiences - you would note I did not say anything about any "side" or any specific politicians, beyond the fact that they are all about the rhetoric and nothing more. I took no "side". This is about healthcare here and now and nothing else.

You may have lived in both Canada and the USA, however, I do not think that or anything else you said indicates you are more knowledgeable regarding the topic of healthcare than I am. Just as opinionated? Probably. More informed? I doubt it.

I am saying this quietly and with a sigh... have you lived under the Canadian healthcare system and had to use it or paid into it? Or your friends and family? Do you have family working in the system in both Canada and the US? No. Are you in my shoes right now thanks to health insurance companies that decide what is and is not an "emergency" ? My health insurance company is supposed to cover all emergencies. Strangely enough, a visit to the Emergency room where you are immediately admitted and placed on painkillers, MRIed, U/Sed etc. and stay in the hospital for 5 days does not count as an Emergency to them... maybe if I could have afforded very hefty premiums, then and only then would that Emergency visit have counted as an Emergency.

At least the hospital was great and the care from the staff was wonderful.

As I said, I am very glad that you have recovered and are doing well

- I just quietly suggest that perhaps you try to look at things from another point of view when it comes to this and not just assume that you know how everything always works in Canada - or anywhere else, for that matter. You have not lived it. You have not used it. You have not been there, done that. I have. In three different provinces and one state. That does not make me an "expert" and I never claimed to be one - but I can speak from personal experience - both mine and that of friends and family.

As I said earlier - bad hospitals exist everywhere - even here. As many posts in this thread have demonstrated.

I have heard more than one Canadian defending their free health care

Tab - it is not "free". That is another myth.

***

Danny Williams, a Canadian Official, came to the USA this past February seeking heart surgery.

Ah yes, he is always trotted out now to show that Canadians come to the US for everything. Only, they don't. Danny Williams is the controversial Premier of Newfoundland. The entire population of Newfoundland-Labrador is only about 500,000. He has $$$$$$. He chose to go to Miami (I think?) for a specialized heart surgery. Big deal. But now his name is waved around as a prime example of... something or other.

As always, money talks.

People who have the $$$ to do so can go anywhere to get specific treatment - whether Canadian or American or any other nationality. My boss here has friends who have gone to Vancouver (Canada, not WA) and elsewhere - even France - for surgery/treatment... if you have the $$$$$$$$$$, you can pick and chose. The majority of us are not able to do that...

 

[Marty]

How ironic, since I first posted this thread, that our local emergency room has in just shut their doors and closed down. Something about "restructurning" whatever that means.

I don't know how this turned into a politcal debate. I was just complaining about the horrible treatment we get here locally in our hospital and emergency room. I am thrilled others don't go through what we do in this small town enviorment having to "settle" for whatever care we may or may not get.

Dan had a wreck one night last year coming home in a storm. People had been turning mules and horses loose up here in the mountains and he skidded on the wet road trying to avoid hitting what he thought were two horses running in front of his truck. Turned out to be some really large deer. He went off the road, through a barbed wire cattle fence then head on into a telephone pole. Besides other injuries, he got stuck and pinned going through part of the windshield and was suffering from multiple injuries. We learned from the past not to bother to wait for the useless paramedics who stand around and watch people die doing nothing to help so Jerry took Dan to the hospital himself rather than wait for them. They took Dan into the ER and they there for six hours, basically most of the night waiting to be seen and the doctor never showed.All the nurses could do was to keep paging him and give Dan water to drink. Long story short, we ended up picking the glass out of his head, face and body ourselves and patching the rest of him up until our doctor's office opened up the next morning. I guess this is all part of the price you pay when living very rural.

 

[Minimor]

Jill, in spite of what you think you know from a few stories told on the news and whatever other sources you choose to listen to--and obviously you do listen to those that say what you want to hear, and ignore those who say things you don't want to hear--there are many, many Canadians who could afford to go to the US for health care and yet they choose to stay here in Canada. Some choose to go south of the border, but many more do not--and those who stay here DO get quality health care.

I told my mom about this thread & she said last year when she needed her knee replacement redone she couldn't have gotten in any quicker--she waited only as long as it took to get the "parts" in from the US and then she went into hospital for her surgery. She had excellent care that time around, then when she had to go back in due to infection that required further surgery, she got back in right away. That time she stayed in 3 weeks, and again she had excellent care for the most part. In 3 weeks she did have a couple shifts of nurses that weren't wonderful, but I suspect that is something likely to be encountered in nearly any/every hospital these days, US ones as well as Canada.

Many, many of us get better care here than what some people--many people perhaps--get in the US. Yes, sometimes people have to wait quite awhile when they go into Emerg--it depends on the day and time, how many other people are there at the time and how sick one is, and how one's illness/injury compares to the ailments of the other people that are there. Patients brought in by ambulance get first priority, otherwise everyone is assessed and put on the priority list--severe bleeding gets in quick, as does a probable or obvious heart attack/stroke...broken bones will come ahead of a serious cold or simple flu...if you go in with something minor, something that could have/should have been seen at the walk-in clinic instead, you might sit there quite awhile, which is pretty much as it should be--serious ailments shouldn't have to wait for a bunch of minor ailments to be seen to.

 

[Crabby-Chicken]

When we have had to use the emergency room, it has never been a shorter wait than a couple house. One was for a broken hand, one a stroke. And the service was fine AFTER they saw you.

And I appreciate the people who have actually lived in Canada coming on here and letting me know how the health care system is working in their country. Not just people saying the boogie man is coming to ruin our perfect system we have now.

Marty that is atrocious treatment, but not a big suprise to me. If you have a lot of money then you count. At least in the minds of the current health care system.

 

[tagalong]

I guess this is all part of the price you pay when living very rural.

Marty - that is just awful. And being rural has nothing to do with it. I have lived places where the nearest big city was a 4 hour drive away and yet the small local hospital was excellent. I wish you had better facilities/services there...

 

[Jill]

Tag, no I'm not in your shoes and never have been. I'm in my own shoes... Ones I picked out and paid for. We ALL speak from personal experience and what we've learned from others in our lives.

Just because I do not share your opinion surely does not mean I look at things from only one point of view. I've told you what I think and why I think it as well (and as concisely) as I know how. Most of the American population feels just as I do about the situation at hand.

Marty, I don't know if you have tv, radio or newspapers in your neck of the woods? But if so, then I don't know how you could be sincerely surprised that the topic of emergency rooms and hospitals would be political at this point in time.

 

[~Lisa~]

 

[tagalong]

Tag, no I'm not in your shoes and never have been. I'm in my own shoes... Ones I picked out and paid for. We ALL speak from personal experience and what we've learned from others in our lives.

But that was my point, Jill. You have had NO personal experience with the Canadian system and yet you are sure that you know more about it than I do (or than anyone else does) and know what always happens as you suggested when posting about your surgery. Whatever. I was not the only one who pointed out that your assumptions were incorrect. You can continue to be dismissive of me - and others - but that will not change the facts.

I bought and paid for my own shoes as well, you know.

You may be in Manolo Blahniks

and I may be in Skechers but I do the best I can.

Lisa, you're right.

I should not have bothered sharing any facts, concerns or experiences. That horse has had enough.... oops - you shortened your post as I was typing!!

 

[~Lisa~]

I did Tag.. that poor horse has been beat enough and I ran out of popcorn anyway LOL

 

[Jill]

Tag, you know "whatever". There are reasons I feel as I do, and I've laid them out pretty well. It's not an illogical point of view and it is one shared by most of the American voters.

I do know that a few of those here chomping at the bit for this "free" healthcare are in for some surprises as to what it will mean to their own pocket book if it does go into place. I know that over the years, I have just had to shake my head when on this message board, they have referenced the "fact" that they cannot afford health insurance... yet here they are as horse owners. I cannot think of a bigger, expensive, non-necessity than owning a horse.

At some point, you've just got to shrug it off when you're debating with those who just don't want to accept what to me is a basic core value and that is the importance of personal responsibility. It's one thing when you really cannot help yourself, but another when you just make the choice not to. I'm thankful I was raised to go out and get "it", vs. waiting for "it" to be given to me.

This IS a political matter and I'm not interested in carrying it on any further on LB. Feel free to find me on the real popular social networking site where, like here, I don't hide behind a fake name or cartoon picture.

Tag, with all the respect you're due, it sounds to me like you're the one who drank the kool aid (propaganda).

You'd be hard pressed to find someone who pays closer attention to the news (print, tv and radio) than I do, not to mention my life experience, and the conversations I've had with my own doctors and my clients who are medical professionals. I know there's a reason:

• Most Americans on this thread have said that if you think things are bad now, just wait -- they're about to get worse.
• Danny Williams, a Canadian Official, came to the USA this past February seeking heart surgery.
• The majority of the American public does not favor a universal healthcare plan.
• Historically people who live in nations with National / Universal healthcare who can afford to get care in the USA, come here for just that reason (just like Danny Williams).
• The UK's system, the one the USA's is slated to most closely resemble, is in tremendous trouble with reports this week about about the UK planning to decentralize their system and that most basic treatment there is or will be rationed.
• Those of us who have parents or close relatives covered by Medicare know about the cutbacks in Doctor reimbursement and the restrictions and hoops those covered by this socialized form of healthcare are forced to go through.

The USA currently is the source of the best healthcare in the World. Regardless of how you personally feel about it, I'm not even going to entertain a debate on that reality because I feel it's like discussing if the Easter bunny will or will not visit my house next spring. The world class status of US Healthcare is subject to charge for the worse soon. This is due to recent legislation that will result in National / Universal / Socialized care -- legislation that is widely unpopular among the American voters. The only redeeming factor if this does go into place is that currently, it is not outlined to be a single payer healthcare system like the one in Canada.

 

[tagalong]

At some point, you've just got to shrug it off when you're debating with those who just don't want to accept what to me is a basic core value and that is the importance of personal responsibility. It's one thing when you really cannot help yourself, but another when you just make the choice not to. I'm thankful I was raised to go out and get "it", vs. waiting for "it" to be given to me.

I have personal responsibility, thank you very much.

I do not wait for anything to be given to me and never have. I have always - always - gone out and gotten "it". More assumptions on your part.

Jill, I love good debates and a sharing of views and opinions and finding out the facts. Especially different opinions and views that we can all learn from even if we may not agree with them. However, a good debate does not include being completely dismissive of others' opinions, making assumptions, sneering and resorting to personal slights such as this...

Feel free to find me on the real popular social networking site where, like here, I don't hide behind a fake name or cartoon picture.

I do not care much for Facebook, thanks. I am on there - but only for close friends and family. I am also not HIDING behind anything. Yet another assumption on your part. I use tagalong all over the internet btw. An avatar is just an avatar... not anything being "hidden" as you are trying to suggest. I change the photo at times to something else fun. I guess I did not know that it was an attempt to "hide". I have explained in other threads that I do not own the farm I work on or the minis and ponies here - and even though I used to link to the website in my siggy and had the horses in my avatar from the very start of LB, I learned that was a bad idea. My opinions are mine and mine alone and not those of the farm. And when my employer was harrassed by someone here who did not care for my opinion on a very minor matter (nothing political in any way), I chose to no longer have links to the farm or feature photos of the horses. It seemed the ethical and yes, RESPONSIBLE thing to do - and I stand by that. I do not hide - many here know who I am and where I work and the quality horses that come out of here... and I have posted about the horses many times and cheered them on at Nationals and Worlds. So much for "hiding". I am apparently not very good at it.

I am sorry that you were determined to make this into a political thread when very few of us were and that you then chose to make it personal.

If you want to continue to make it personal, please take it to PMs. I always answer them.

Marty, I am sorry that your thread is spiralling towards a lockdown. That poor dead horse has no more hide left by this point...