How about 2 or more foals

[Jess P]

I don't like this idea. I say, poor mares. Also, there will be a HUGE population increase of miniature horses which means more dwarves are possible to be born, and more mistreated horses as well since they didn't find a proper home.

This is just my opinion

 

[justaboutgeese]

I was one of the early poster on this thread so the backgroung can be read there. I would like to add that even if this was allowed I do not see a large influx of unwanted foals. The process for flushing the eggs, fertilising them and then haveing a host to put them in is not cheap. Only major syndicate owned horses or animals belonging to people of independant wealth would have the resources for this procedure.

 

[Relic]

l always felt mother nature did a great job and that man himself is the fool.

 

[Boinky]

gosh it's definatly nothing new.. i'm of several minds on the topic..i think it COULD be a great tool if used correctly..but i do agree and foresee some serious abuses to it.... i certianly wouldn't rule it out that's for sure..

Honestly though.. how is the mare having multiple foals any differnt than a stallion? Look at all the popular stallions in history that have had oodles (hundreds) with serious health problems from that one stallion (or lack of health problems but loads of nice foals) because he's allowed to breed alot of mares and never find out what will be produced..yet it's ok and an accepted practice to breed stallions so much.. frankly your more likely to see lots of foals from one stallion than one mare even with all this technical mumbo jumbo.. mare's only born with so many eggs in a lifetime then they are done.

I remember back in the mid 90's a vet here in Kentucky (i guess ET's were quite new in the horse world then and he was known as a pioneer of it) did an embryo transfere from Zebra's to Mares. This was a way to help boost the natural balance of Zebra's as they were getting very low in population. It was quite sucessful (et that is..i havent' heard much as far as if they've really gotten far enough to boost the population yet) but a beautiful little zebra foal was born to the mare. It could certainly be a VERY useful tool in helping to increase endangered species populations.....

 

[midnight star stables]

I also just wanted to add, i think its good because, if one farm has dreams on this one stallion & mare, then they have more chances on getting that foal (& maybe x 2!! lol) & less chance of a red bag delivery or something

 

[Boinky]

gosh it's definatly nothing new.. i'm of several minds on the topic..i think it COULD be a great tool if used correctly..but i do agree and foresee some serious abuses to it.... i certianly wouldn't rule it out that's for sure..

Honestly though.. how is the mare having multiple foals any differnt than a stallion? Look at all the popular stallions in history that have had oodles (hundreds) with serious health problems from that one stallion (or lack of health problems but loads of nice foals) because he's allowed to breed alot of mares and never find out what will be produced..yet it's ok and an accepted practice to breed stallions so much.. frankly your more likely to see lots of foals from one stallion than one mare even with all this technical mumbo jumbo.. mare's only born with so many eggs in a lifetime then they are done.

I remember back in the mid 90's a vet here in Kentucky (i guess ET's were quite new in the horse world then and he was known as a pioneer of it) did an embryo transfere from Zebra's to Mares. This was a way to help boost the natural balance of Zebra's as they were getting very low in population. It was quite sucessful (et that is..i havent' heard much as far as if they've really gotten far enough to boost the population yet) but a beautiful little zebra foal was born to the mare. It could certainly be a VERY useful tool in helping to increase endangered species populations.....

 

[victoria]

There is nothing wrong with being progressive and forward thinking... Personally I see benefits in it, and there is no way I'd have a closed mind to anything like that. I value my mares and show them long term so If my mare can continue her show career while she's also producing then hey thats a good thing not a bad or negative thing. Cost is prohibitive, so I don't see a huge market flood here.. Registries could control the number of registerable offspring.

The arguement of differculty of conception and why those mares should not produce grates on my nerves.. If that were they case should we pull the plug on women who have differculty too and deny them the opportunity either?

Sorry I see a lot of tall poppies here.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Victoria, I think you make a good point BUT the registries cannot and will not control the amount of offspring registered and, whilst I FULLY empathise with women who have problems conceiving, I DO worry about the problems we are passing on to our children. The Government has just instigated an investigation into premature babies- it is never even considered that the babies lives will not be fought for if it is the parents wishes- what will change is the advice given, based on the facts the investigation will find out- such as long term total disability and quality of life. It is the most emotive time but, sometimes, even with Humans, it is just not meant to be. Also, surrogacy in Humans is so emotive I will not even GO there. I do not think it will ever become more than an act of extreme, selfless, kindness. I do not think surrogacy in horses will ever become more than a tool of the rich- yet another way to make money form high priced animals that will soon not be able to reproduce naturally at all, whilst, at the other end of the scale, a small nucleus of well intentioned, dedicated breeders and owners struggle to deal with the flotsam of this "industry" (HOW I hate this term) battling the, meat market and the uninformed, right through to the downright cruel, for the sake of the $50.00 colts.

 

[victoria]

Well Im very much pro choice, you have the choice to do something or you have the choice not to.... Its your call at the end of the day. If there are those that can afford the luxury why prevent them? A responsible/smart breeder will protect there own bloodlines with there life, it would be deteremental for them to flood the market with offspring by XXX stallion or mare as it would kill the supply and demand curve. I personally do not see how this will lead to a greater influx of horses to the market cost is prohibitive, why spend 5K making $50 offspring? the economics just isn't there. However I see it as a useful option for those willing to go to the expense.

Personally I see the threat of the "puppy mill breeders" churning out high numbers of sub-standard foals each year as more of a problem than ET would ever be..

 

[Kendra]

Just a few more thoughts ...

Someone mentioned the possibility of increasing the spread of a genetic disease. Yes, the Impressive story is always to be remembered, AI allowing a stallion with a genetic problem to pass it on to hundreds of offspring so that HYPP is now a fact of life in several different breeds. However, it's not the same thing. A reasonably fertile stallion can breed 20 mares with one ejaculate, a mare can only produce one (or, in a very rare occasion, two) embryo per cycle. Even with short cycling after each flush, you're still not going to be producing dozens of foals a year or anything. Superovulatory drugs, used commonly in cattle, haven't been found useful in horses.

The concern about producing subfertile foals is always there. Horses are, and have been for hundreds of years, selectively bred for qualities other than fertility. A bull, with the same concentration and motility as what we consider a very fertile stallion, would be shipped. As far as breeding a mare that can't carry a foal to term; how many of us use Regumate or some other Progesterone supplement to get a live foal?

what if you breed this unlikely pair and there are two embryos in the womb...if the second one isn't found...

The uterus is completely flushed, and the mare is brought into heat to try again ... this isn't a possibility.

Just one more thing ... recipient mares are needed for this procedure. It is quite common to use mares purchased from a meat buyer, thereby giving them a second chance, one that, after the owners of the donor mare spend a whole winter and summer looking after her and her foal, generally lasts for a long, long time.

Embryo Transfer Info

 

[mistyrose]

The true benfit in this is probably in export. It is easier to import frozen embryos than live animals.

The other benifit in the current study is the developement of viable frozen semen. I would prefer to ship frozen semen from a west coast stallion to Ohio than to ship my mare out west. The semen would be ready when the mare was ready instead of everyone flying around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to time everything to cooled semen shipments. Frozen semen can be viable for decades. It is good insurance when you buy an expensive stallion.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Honestly though.. how is the mare having multiple foals any differnt than a stallion?  Look at all the popular stallions in history that have had oodles (hundreds) with serious health problems from that one stallion (or lack of health problems but loads of nice foals) because he's allowed to breed alot of mares and never find out what will be produced..yet it's ok and an accepted practice to breed stallions so much.. frankly your more likely to see lots of foals from one stallion than one mare even with all this technical mumbo jumbo.. mare's only born with so many eggs in a lifetime then they are done. 
I

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Aint this the truth but the bottom line here is our breed will still be plauged with the problem it has now overpopulation for the above reason- and tons of pet quality foals again for the reason that people arent honest and brutal in decisions about what they breed. and yet even this small population of mini owners here on this board cant seem to agree that perhaps we should all take a look at our own breeding practices.

We are a breed where the majority own there own stallion and many farms more then one - this just isnt the case in most other breeds and that is to me where the issue is not in ET

 

[Jean_B]

The whole point I would think, about your statement is  " cannot carry a foal to term"!!!!  What on earth are we doing here??? If the mare cannot carry a foal, I am very much afraid I do not want her foal, especially if it is a filly!!

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Actually there could be a lot of good reasons for wanting to get a foal out of that mare!

I have an incredible young mare who had a really really bad distocia. Why? Close examination of the placenta showed an extensive bruise, which leads me and the vet to think it was caused by a bad kick from one of the other mares. Does this mean she shouldn't be allowed to reproduce? Heck no!!! This is not a genetic trait that she would pass on. At this point I don't know if she is able to carry a foal to term, but it certainly would be a nice option.

I grew up in the dairy industry like a few others that have posted on this topic. The science of it makes PERFECT sense! If you have a high producing milk cow - wouldn't it be nice to have a whole bunch of offspring from her that will help pay the bills and then cull the lower producing ones?

I realize that this is comparing apples to oranges. The dairy industry has perfected the science and it is very inexpensive. A flushing will produce maybe 7 to 15 VIABLE eggs (once in a great while a few more). People in the dairy industry NEED high producing, highly efficient milk producers and genetics are a determining factor. The industry has studied production records (a VERY MEASURABLE factor) for many many years.

The horse industry has very few measurable factors for making breeding decisions. About all we have are halter and performance show records that could be considered measurable. We do not have a DAILY product to send to market like the dairy and beef industries (yes, the beef industry is doing ET's as well with their efficient meat producing bloodlines).

Is this messing with mother nature? Maybe, but it IS a benefit to EVERYONE in society.....to the farmer in more cost-effective production, and to the consumer in lower prices for their milk, meat, etc.

 

[midnight star stables]

why spend 5K making $50 offspring?

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ok, i don't think it would be the ET foal that would be $50... but the others, with not as good pedigree....JMO

I'm still for it though

 

[bridlebit]

IMO, we have enough reproductive problems in the miniature horse with live natural cover. My vet does do embryo tranfer in the big horse breeds and there is a lot of sonograming that has to be done on both the donor and receipient mare. If a vet does not know what they are doing they can damage or possibly kill a miniature mare since sonograming a mini is not as easy as a big mare. I feel like we are messing with Mother Nature also. The mini market is all ready flooded with unwanted stud colts. ( Just go to some of the auctions and you will see this). Some of these stud colts have come out of exceptional bloodlines.

Also, it is in the AMHA bylaws that embryo transplant is not allowed. The Board of Directors at AMHA does not have the power to change these bylaws without the vote of the membership. This did not happen as I was at the BOD meeting when this item was brought up.

I think that this will definitely flood the market with more unwanted horses. I feel that AMHA should concern their efforts into dwarfism research and miniature horse abuse. It would be money well spent.