How about 2 or more foals

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Horse Hugs said:
just what the miniature horse breed needs- more breedings!!!! Every day on the sales boards horses are practically being given away and so many minis are ending up in bad situations.
I can just see Whoopi breeding her litter box trained mare so she can have 50 of them.

Just because it might be expensive doesn't mean it won't be abused. I have seen more abuse cases coming from people with a lot of money than I have seen coming from people who are on tight budgets.

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Yes, there are always the downsides to things like this, Im sure there would be some foal mill that would try to make as many babies as possible with something like this, and they are the ones that give good useful technology like this a bad name... but in the hands of responsible breeders, It could be a very useful tool and could improve the breed. I do believe AMHA and the registries should make strict guidelines on this technique if they pass it, and only allow a certain number of foals in a breeding season and so forth... I dont want to go into too many details on this, that is why AMHA is allowing the trial, so they can determine and study the potential outcomes, good and bad, of someting like this, but I dont think we should just turn our heads away from something that could open up more possibilities of improving the breed if it is used properly.... I myself wouldnt go over 2 foals on one cross in a single breeding season, I dont want to be a big farm producing as many babys as I can, My goal is to stay small with only a couple quality foals a year... One reason I started this is so we could discuss both the ups and downs of this, It will come up eventually and we all need to be informed so we can make the right decision....
 
The registries could be a cap on the number of foals per year for a particular mare. That could help for those that are concerned with the numbers problem. I still think I like the old-fashioned way best, but I'm not involved in showing. I don't think this should be used to overcome physical limitations such as a small cervix as then this would just pass that down to another generation.
 
Scripps Miramar is a Saddlebred breeding operation, not a Tennessee Walker one.

There is a great deal of financial resources there, and apparently, a burning desire to show-they used to haul a semiload into our State Fair show, and would often be showing only against each other in classes, as historically, there have never been many Saddlebreds showing in this area. Not surprised they would be doing embryo transplants.

I think embryo transfer would end up being more of a drawback than a benefit to Miniature Horses. At first blush, it may look like a wonderful tool-and indeed, in some very specific circumstances, such as non-reproductive injury to an otherwise reproductive-sound mare, it could well be--but, consider such possible negatives as replicating reproductive problems that would not have been allowed to go forward if Nature's limitations had been allowed(i.e., narrow pelvises),just for starters(as rabbitsfizz has pointed out.)Limitations on the number of offspring within a given time period have already been struck down; in a lawsuit against AQHA, a group of cutting horse people claimed such limits interfered with free trade(or some such specious argument!), under Texas law--and they won-you think the same thing wouldn't happen in other breeds? So-nope, no limitations possible-if you want, and CAN AFFORD, to implant dozens from a single mare in a year, you will be able to. The "CAN AFFORD TO" aspect, I believe, is also troubling, especially to those who don't have the financial resources to pay for such high tech, high priced procedures. Already, it is often those who can win the 'hauling contests' that prevail at the highest show levels-the small time, but KNOWLEDGEABLE, breeder/owner *might*have bred or otherwise obtained just as good a horse, but cannot afford the costs of hauling it widely to show(or paying a trainer to-even more expensive.) Many(no, not all,but MANY)of those who will end up winning the big (primarily,halter)placings at national shows will do so with horses they BOUGHT-believe me, there are plenty of 'trainers' and others out there whose job it is to 'sniff out' the quality horses that have been foaled, and point the $$ folks toward their prospective purchase. Many(no, not all, but MANY)of these $$ folks do NOT bring a lifetime of horse knowledge and experience to their position as the now-owner/prospective breeder of these now well-recognized "horses-that-can-win"-sometimes VERY good horses, but not ALWAYS the genuine 'best' in the country(Sidenote: at my intown vet's last week,having my black filly's upper eyelid sewn up, I met a lady who moved here recently. She told me she'd foaled out(for the owners), "---- ----- ----- ----- -----", a very tiny mare who was AMHA National Champion Senior Mare at Halter in her size range several years ago-and who has the worst 'calf knees"(back at the knee) I've personally ever seen-visible from the stands AND in her professionally-taken photos-I was there to see it -what a sad situation, to have a horse with that kind of SERIOUS conformational flaw WIN at that level! (And then they bred her.....)It's not the only time I have personally observed this kind of thing at the national level, however.) Combine this lack of genuine knowledge and experience,(in an area that is NEVER certain, anyway!), with access to the technology to "super-reproduce"their animals, and it surely looks like a slippery slope, to me. I have no doubt this will shortly be 'fully' permitted, at least in AMHA; however, I do not believe that overall it will be a genuine benefit to our breed. I also expect that there will be regret, perhaps very deep and belated, when this is finally realized. (Yes, already a pretty limited gene pool............)
 
Embryo Transfers are being done ALL the time in "big" horse world. It is especially useful for a competition mare who's owners don't want to take her out of competition, ,but yet want a foal from her, or for the mare who is worth to much to risk being pregnant, going through labor etc, or for the mare who has foaling soundness issues that cannot be pregnant. Of course Embryo Transfers are most common among the Warmblood breeds, as you must breed Live Cover for a Registered TB. As common of a practice as this is now, it is certainly not without risk - mainly to your pocket book though. It isn't cheap, especially if you have to do the transfer several times to get an actual pregnancy established. I do think that at least for now, it is a bit more $$ then your regular back yard breeder would want to spend, which is probably a good thing....
 
As already pointed out this is far from a new concept. The cattle industry has been using it for years.

The QH industry never put a limit on how many ET horses could be registered, the QH association never "let" them in at all. The rule book always stated only one foal per mare a year. A group of cutters grew tired of having to register their ET horses with a outside registry because of the rule and sued. This is where it could get ugly for the miniature associations, a court in Fort Worth TX deemed that AQHA could not restrict the registration of a foal out of 2 in good standing AQHA parents (or 1 TB). I often wonder what would happen if oversized and dwarf owners got together and sued.

For the most part ET does not bother me.

The one thing that does frighten me is that the use of ET will create a line of horses that cannot safely carry and deliver a foal on their own. Other than that, big picture, I do not think ET will affect the breed one way or the other.
 
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Just my opinion but I think it's wrong to do stuff like that, clones, embyotic transfers, and anything else that is opposite of Nature.
 
The Morgans have been doing this for a few years now; originally they allowed only 1 embryo transplant per year. Keep in mind that you don't get a live foal for every embryo that is flushed--the practice (at least at the time when the Morgans were allowed only one registered foal/year) is to flush out several embryos, implant them all & hope to get one that 'takes' and creates a live foal. Then one year one breeder got TWO live foals by ET, and rule or no rule that breeder wanted to register both of them. The owner sued the registry and won--both foals got registered, and that was the end of the "one only" rule.

As I see it, in the Morgans it wasn't just a matter of wanting to show the mare & get a foal from her too--people that had really good mares wanted as many foals as possible from her, and so with ET they could try to get 2 or more foals each year. I wouldn't say it's a common practice, but there are people doing it. I haven't heard any dollar amounts in a long time, but it's still not a cheap thing to do I don't imagine, and the "little people" aren't much a part of it. I can't see it being a widespread practice in the Miniature breed either if it becomes accepted--I'm sure there are a good many of us that cannot afford it.

My neighbor who raises QH's tried it with one of his mares last year--he leased two recipient mares from a neighboring PMU farm, hauled them & his donor mare out west to some facility that does ET. Neither mare 'took' the transplanted embryoes, and he ended up coming home with 3 mares & no foals, and out a lot of money. The facility's diagnosis was that neither of the recipient mares were capable of carrying a foal, but when this fellow returned the mares to their owner both were turned out to pasture with a stallion, & both caught in foal & delivered foals this year. So, whatever the problem, it wasn't the recipient mares!

I don't have much issue with ET being accepted in Miniature breeding, other than I do agree with those who said it's not a good idea to use the method to get foals from mares which have physical traits that should not be bred on--i.e., narrow pelvis, too narrow to deliver a foal.
 
I'm with the Jockey Club on this, live cover only! If a mare can't get pregnant and carry the foal to term, she shouldn't reproduce. If a stallion isn't fertile enough, it should not be reproduced in a lab. There are reasons all creatures are set up to breed the way they do. Those of you with valuable stallions, their worth decreases with the amount of foals that don't do anything. Those of you with valuable mares, the value of the foals go down if you can find even 5 of them in one year. I don't like the amount of mares that a Jockey Club stallion can cover. The horse market is glutted all around, why would we make it worse?

I know this is going to cause controversy and I apologize in advance, I do not mean to offend anyone, but I don't believe in artificial means of reproduction in any creature - even humans. To quote people of religion, God didn't mean for it to happen, why force it? To quote science, there is a REASON it's not working!
 
I completely agree with everyone saying that you should not mess with mother nature. For those of you having a hard time selling your colts, just imagine what it would be like with top mares producing even 5 foals a year. I DO think the registries should pass it and put a ONE foal limit. That way it'll take out all those people that just want to get a whole load of foals out a particular mare and limit it to just those people with mares too small and older mares who can't carry full term. I also think that before you have it done the donor mare should have to be approved by AMHA; AMHR before hand. This will also limit the use to mares that are too small, older mares, or even mares that are to be shown. Also they should have to give the sire's name as well so then we don't have any crazy stuff happening with miniature/quarter horse crosses. I know some of you may say it would be good for getting those arabian bloodlines and etc. but if you really want arabian then you should do it how everybody else did it and DOWNSIZE. In my opinion crossing a mini with an arabian would just be cheating and we all know what eventually happens with cheating.

In the new Miniature Horse World I read that new memberships are down (last year too!) and sales this year haven't been so great-I've seen minis advertised for $100! And they want to make it so mares have 3 foals a year? GREAT!
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this came up on here about 6 months ago and got pretty heated. My biggest problem with this is exactly what chandler posted.

A mare (even a natl champ mare) that cannot carry a foal is obviously not breeding material. So you go around it and do a transfer. What are the chances that you are breeding the same fault in her daughters?? It is a fault for a mare not to be able to carry a foal. I cringe to think of delibertly breeding in more problems by breeding mares unable to carry a foal.

Now last time this came up someone i admire alot on here pointed out this situation to me

A nat champ mare has a leg injury that keeps her from safely being in foal (cant remember the exact details some kind of accident) so they would like to do a transfer with this mares egg. Okay this i can see and support. Because this is nothign inherited.

So i can see both sides of this---its a hard one for sure
 
ET or embryo transfer is done in Standardbreds. At the Standardbred farm where I work, we currently have a surrogate Belgan mare who is carrying a foal for one of the top $ mares owned by the farm who is getting up there in age and had a difficult pregnancy with her 2005 foal. The US Trotting Association has approved this type of procedure but there are rules and regulations to follow in order to be able to register the resulting foal. Nandi Veterinary Hospital in Pennsylvania does this procedure very often.

Linda

Roxy's Run Miniatures
 
kaykay said:
this came up on here about 6 months ago and got pretty heated.  My biggest problem with this is exactly what chandler posted.
A mare (even a natl champ mare) that cannot carry a foal is obviously not breeding material.  So you go around it and do a transfer.  What are the chances that you are breeding the same fault in her daughters?? It is a fault for a mare not to be able to carry a foal.  I cringe to think of delibertly breeding in more problems by breeding mares unable to carry a foal. 

Now last time this came up someone i admire alot on here pointed out this situation to me

A nat champ mare has a leg injury that keeps her from safely being in foal (cant remember the exact details some kind of accident) so they would like to do a transfer with this mares egg.  Okay this i can see and support.  Because this is nothign inherited. 

So i can see both sides of this---its a hard one for sure

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KayKay,

I agree there are good situations and bad situations to use ET on, yours are great examples of both, I wouldnt want to see people using it in an effort to make more money, we all know they are out there and that is one big problem...

Now lets say hypothetically, a 28" mare that had no breeding problems, can carry and foal with no problems with a small stallion or one close to her height, but you wanted to breed her to a larger, say 32.5" World Champion Stallion to bring out certain characteristics and traits in a foal, with conventional breeding practices, It would just be too much of a risk to the mares life so we couldnt do it, We MAY be missing out on one nice foal as a result... but with the help of ET, we COULD make the cross without risking the mares life, all with the help of a larger mare that could carry and foal it... We almost always have to look for a stallion either smaller than the mare or very close to the same size in order to have a safe breeding, but with ET used responsibly, we could now realise a foal that couldnt happen due to risk of death on the mares part... I see this situation as where ET could be very helpful in allowing you to produce a quality foal where you normally couldnt...

I am in NO WAY in support of using this to make more foals like alot are worried about, I can see where this could easily get out of hand, but there can be some benefits to it... I have around 20 miniatures, almost my whole herd is mares, some are rescues which are pasture horses and most show quality, I only had 2 foals this year out of 3 bred, one didnt take, alln3 were bred for a purpose with condsideration on what the crosses would produce, and I am VERY happy with the results...
 
I apologize ahead of time if I don't make sense.
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What is the purpose really of the miniature horse breed? Isn't it a height breed? Isn't the point to get them small and correct? If you can't breed your small mares, what is the point? I understand wanting to get correct horses but what if that tiny mare that has been bred to a larger stallion than ET and the foal is a filly and small, wouldn't you be adding the larger stallions genes in there and then adding the risk of that filly's foal being bigger? And what about the people who purchase these horses and might not know the history or understand genetics. Or the mare passes on any unknown/known breeding defects? Unfortunatley, we humans have created these breeding problems for our little guys and I don't think ET will serve any great purpose. I think Mother Nature really does know best.

Liz V.
 
Over 10 years ago one of the large arab farms I worked for had a herd of big ol q-horse mares.....my barn which housed 40 mares and their foals had 4 of these q-horses........who were giving birth to stunning little arab foals.........

Most of the embryo transfer being done on this farm was from older polish import mares who's bloodlines were desired.....

personally I could give a rip..... if the people who have the money to do this, want to do it, more power to them..........

whether I think it is right or wrong does not matter in this day and age if you have the money to do something there is nothing stopping you.......
 
I already pisted here, but wanted to add:

The main problem I see in multiple ET's per year on the same mare is the risk of having multiple foals with the same genetic problem. When you breed naturally, at least you have a year - or more - between each foal, to make sure that your choice for a sire - and even the choice to breed the mare - was a correct one. When this multiple ET is preformed, you really have no way of knowing what you really have until the foal matures, and that could be a scary thing. I also see this staying more popular in the "big" sized horse world, rather then getting mainstreamed in the mini world.
 
shadyacersminis said:
Hi Everyone,
I thought I should share this with everyone, It is very interesting...

There is some new technology in equine breeding taking place at Mississippi State University right now, It is still in the beginning stages but it will soon spread all across the US, They have found away for a MARE to have multiple foals in a single year and not by having twins or triplets, which we are all aware of the dangers if that happened..... you may be saying NO WAY, CANT HAPPEN
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   right about now  but it is true
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... They have pioneered a new method of embryonic transfer in equine breeding practices. This may be tough to explain, but I will try my best, I understand exactly how it works, but putting it in words is harder...

Ok, Hypothetically, lets say I wanted to have my 29.5" mare Gracie bred to say my stallion Hurricane, on common breeding practices, you could have a foal by this cross once a year, but with this embryonic transfer, you could have 2 or 3, or even more foals of this same cross in one breeding season, first it would start off with hand breeding Hurricane and Gracie, then I think its somewhere between 7 - 14 days later, you would have a vetrinary clinic then remove the embryo (foal) containing Gracies and Hurricanes Genes that Gracie would normally carry to term and foal, and then transplant it in to a serrogant mare to carry and foal, then on next heat cycle, you would rebreed and repeat this process all over in another mare.

This new breeding practice could be used with all kinds of benefits to the smaller horses, Even though I used Hurricane and Gracie as an example, I couldnt actually breed them because of the size difference, with Hurricane around 33" and Gracie at 29.5"., Hurricane is just to big of a stud to breed to her without a big risk, but with this new practice, You COULD actually breed them and then transplant into a larger mare around Hurricanes size, but yet the foal is still genetically Gracies and Hurricanes and would be the same foal that Gracie would have delivered... so If we wanted to incorperate larger horses confirmation traits, that size would normally not allow, you could now do it at the same time working on breeding down to get a even more refined smaller horse over time....

Another benefit is if you have a really expensive mare, and if something happens to her during the foaling process, you could really take a hard fall on it, but with a less expensive serrogant mare, you wouldnt have as much of a loss if something happened.. Not to sound cruel or anything, Its hard for me if something happens to any of my horses, but its a fact of the business, then one of you expensive top quality mares isnt damaged for life and worthless.... There are many other benefits and situations for this, but I want to keep this as short as possible..

The AQHA has already accepted this as a breeding practice and can be used, and the foals by this process can be registered with them..... This technique is already also being used by large and small horse farms around the southeast with great results, but not alot of clinics are set up for it yet and cant offer it, but from what Ive seen on it, that will soon change... Ive seen a couple good segments on the news and RFD-TV about this and how it is now starting to spread and be recognized.... Anyway, I think that it is very interesting to know how breeding is changing with moderen day technology.... This technique could be very worthwile in some situations.... but Im sure AMHA and AMHR would take thier sweet time researching and studying it before it was ever accepted and you could have a registered foal with them from this...

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Yahoo!!!!! I wondered how long it would take.

I am ready to use it....Just because my mare is getting old and is one of the last two living in her bloodline and I wish to keep it going. Since I do not want to risk losing her this optioin would work.

Of course if in deed there was muti preg. at one time my mare I would ask the vet to do what is best. This would have to be monitored.

WE each have our own veiws on this subject...

I would not use it to out breed and breed and breed.

Preserving a blood line.

Sunseri Farms
 
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Ojai Minis said:
I apologize ahead of time if I don't make sense. 
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What is the purpose really of the miniature horse breed? Isn't it a height breed? Isn't the point to get them small and correct? If you can't breed your small mares, what is the point? I understand wanting to get correct horses but what if that tiny mare that has been bred to a larger stallion than ET and the foal is a filly and small, wouldn't you be adding the larger stallions genes in there and then adding the risk of that filly's foal being bigger? And what about the people who purchase these horses and might not know the history or understand genetics. Or the mare passes on any unknown/known breeding defects? Unfortunatley, we humans have created these breeding problems for our little guys and I don't think ET will serve any great purpose. I think Mother Nature really does know best.

Liz V.

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I really dont see the problem there, I mean, I know of many who breed small stallions to larger mares all the time (keep in mind I am not talking other breeds here), and the resulting foals go on to live a perfectly normal breeding life, most with no birthing problems.. As far as I know, there has never been proof or any way of proving weather a stallion has more influence over height verses a mare, To my knowledge, It is all just the luck of the draw on how the genetics line up.. I do notice most of the time, If I cross a smaller stallion to a larger mare, The foal will most of the time grow to a height almost inbetween the sire and dam, atleast, That has been what usually happens to me.... I dont see any differnece if you reversed the way of breeding... The only reason I have ever heard not to breed a larger stallion to a smaller mare was it would endanger the mares life during foaling..... It also depends on what the individual farms are breeding for, we all have different goals for our breeding programs, One my goals is to breed some of the characteristics that the 30 - 34" horses have and breed them down over time into the 30" and under horses. Here is a quote that pretty much sums up what my end goal is, I didnt write this quote, but it is from a group that I belong to.....

"Our desire is to always move toward the goal of breeding the smallest most correct, balanced horse"

So, I am not trying to move away from the breed objective, but I see ET as a tool that could allow me another way to work on that goal if used carefully and responsibly..... I am not trying to Flame anyone, sound rude or anything, I also dont hold it aginst anyone who has a differenet view than me. I

m just trying to explain my thoughts on it, Everyone has thier own oppinion, and I respect everyones oppinions.... so far this has been a great discussion and I am really glad to see how everyone is expressing thier oppinions without it getting out of hand like I have seen soooo many times in the past...
 
I have actually been playing with the idea of doing that with Molly a while down the road - Id LOVE another foal out of her, but I wont put her threw the whole pregnancy again even though she took, carried, and foaled with flying colors for not foaling in 10 years!

However, This could be a dangerous tool for people to breed even more. More then 1 foal a year from a certin mare is kinda weird, and maybe not the best idea. But if used properly I think its kinda neat, however Im sure ET will get miss used as it becomes popular.
 
ET is nothing new... They have been doing ET in cows for years!

I'm in 4-H, I show a cow, my friend Alannha also shows with me... both of our calfs were born days apart & have the same parents... they are ET sisters.. (& yet look nothing alike, lol
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...minds cuter
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Also in the calgary stamped's rodeo horses.. they are now breeding ETs, so that their best bucking mares can be breed but still buck & go to rodeos...

sheep also have used this for years...

me.. i think its great, makes good use out of those "no good, not reg, ponies" & good show or small mares can go on living great, with out foling troubles
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If midnight was a mare, i would save up the $, & have a ET done on him... then i'd get his baby!!
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if only

ps, ET is short for embryo transfer
 

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