How do you look for Dwarfs in Pedigree?

[Dandy]

I really didn't mean to start a "Hullaballo" with my question. I think many folks on this forum are into taller minis. I agree with Tony, a 26" mini is not going to have long legs. Personally, I like small minis, but have added some taller mares to my farm mainly hoping to prevent problems with foaling. When my first foal was born I was paranoid I had a dwarf because to me he looked like he had a domed forhead and he was back on his pasterns. I went to many websites checking out pictures of foals and realized that they all appeared to have the same forehead!That all changed, he looks great to me now. I had another colt this year who was 17" at birth and the little guy is now 8 months old and still extremely tiny. Now I'm worried about him. There were no dwarf characteristics at birth or within the first few months. He just isn't getting taller. I appreciate all the information everyone has posted. I sure don't plan on going on a "witch hunt" for dwarves in my pedigree's, I just want to be a little more informed.

 

[wewindwalker]

Thank you for posting Bulldogs pic. I hope you don't mind me saving it.

I'm no expert, but I think that any of our miniatures could produce a dwarf, after all isn't all in the genetics and how they line up in the makeup of the foal? JMO

And you can't always go by a pic cause lets face it it's hard to take a good pic sometimes.

But it is good to be informed but remember to look at all the info. JMO

 

[Robin1]

Tony, your horses are beautiful, if Sterling Fantastic wants to visit Arizona he's more than welcome to stay here.

We all know that there were dwarfs used for breeding in the early days.

Lets just take a look at Bond Tiny Tim for a moment. There is no question that he was a dwarf. I know from pictures that he produced more than one dwarf, however he also produced:

Bond Jocko who produced Bond Dynamo who when crossed with the Orion lines are known for putting some of the best horses on the ground.

Bond Dynamo also is the sire of Rhonten's Little Dandy. Now how many people are no longer interested in Dandy knowing Tiny Tim is in his background?

I am blessed to own a Bond Dynamo son out of an Orion daughter. If I ever end up living on the streets (God Forbid) you will find me sharing my cardboard box with him.

Robin

 

[RobinRTrueJoy]

I think we need to remember that tiny does not equal dwarf. I prefer the tinies myself, heck, that's what drew me to the minis. Nothing wrond with the taller minis, I just prefer the smaller ones.

 

[promise]

I agree, tiny does not mean dwarf. I would be far more concerned with the common practice of "this horse has 12 crosses back to such and such", rather than this horse had a grandsire that looked like it had some dwarf characteristics.

I think when a mini has an extensive amount of crosses back to a specific horse, you are fine tuning genetic defects as well as good traits.

In the wild, animal populations plumet when there are genetic diseases and small populations. It is the same genetic back grounds breeding over and over, without any new breeding stock introduced.

would you buy a dog whose back ground was this interbred? I wouldn't!

Promise

 

[kaykay]

dandy

there is nothing wrong with being informed! dont be sorry you asked questions. dwarfism is just a very emotional topic and can get heated.

also keep in mind that a lot of dwarfs are also born to to two completely normal looking normal size miniatures. this is why it makes it so hard to predict who will produce a dwarf.

 

[Southern_Heart]

Tony, I saw your Little America's Too Incredible at a show and I might add he is an awesome lil guy. Very loveable too!!! Such a pretty lil man!!!

I like your Silver Tornado in the picture. Wow! what a butt on him and very stocky.

He is really cute!!

Joyce

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]Tony I think that this is a hot issue for you...as it is for many of us... I along with many others have said that Too Incredible was just that .... Incredible and the Tornado horse and 007 also...... Your little horses dont bear any resemblence to those horses mentioned. [/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

again it i what someone opts to call a dwarf... some dont call it a dwarf unless it is what they percieve to be full blown- very off bite, very crooked legs ect... others see a dwarf when it has very short legs in relation to body size no matter what the height,

 

[tracyCCF]

Isnt Husseler, King Supremes Sire? And wouldnt it be a shame, if he were never bred, look at the amount OF GREAT offspring, he has thrown. I always admired him, and although , never saw him in person, never considered him dwarfy.

I also got the pleasure of seeing Bond Bulldog later in his life, and thought he was a nice, quarter type mini. I never considered him dwarfy body typed.

Although, I dont actually breed for tiny minis, I love them. I love to look at Tonys site, and drool over so many of his tiny overos.

 

[HGFarm]

I was always told the horses should be at least proportionate. They should still be 'square' and balanced - not stubby legs, on a long fat body with a head that looks a bit too big. Sometimes this is accompanied by clubby feet. This is not to be confused with the chunkier old type Mini. I think balanced is the key word.

Tony, your photos of Mr It and Sterling certainly show good balance and length of leg, in addition to pretty heads that 'fit the body'.

I personally dont care for the 'Smurf' or 'Snausage' type horse, but prefer one with some leg, refinement and most of all movement is important to me with balance. JMO

 

[Happy]

l find a lot of people will find fault with any horse under 30 to be faulty on the other hand there are just as many taller over sized ones who show with the same faults but having longer legs going for them people seem to overlook the long bodies short necks and bulky heads on the end.

 

[Sue_C.]

I think many folks on this forum are into taller minis. I agree with Tony, a 26" mini is not going to have long legs.

No, of course they aren't...but like it has already been stated several times...the proportion, is what is important.

I only hope that if there ever is a test, that then, the positive horses will be gelded and or removed from the breeding sheds. We can all "duke" this out forever, but without a test to determine for us in black and white...it is only our consciences that will help control the problem. IMHO, all the "perfect" foals from these dwarf-producing horses, are potentially passing this gene on to future generations.

Granted, I too feel that the further those "old-timers" are in our horse's pedigrees, the more chance there is that the gene hasn't made it this far. We can only hope and do what we, in our hearts...is the right thing.

 

[tagalong]

I am certainly not the expert that many of you seem to be

Um.... you know what - that sneering is inappropriate.

I suspected when I mentioned Husseler that I would get jumped.

So we better keep the dirty little secret Unspoken as always.

I am not An Important Breeder like Tony - but I know what I saw. I have worked with a variety of breeds and disciplines for many many years - so yes - I do know what I am looking at. I was working with a 26" mini stallion at the time that I had some concerns about... and seeing Husseler over that next year (more than once, remember) ...made me worry a bit more.

High prices? - well, the market has always had its peaks and valleys and trends... a horse that looked like Husseler today... would not sell for that kind of money. And he would have been gelded. Times change....

You may not like "short legged, thick necked miniatures" as some have described some of them, but they were, and still are in much demand. If a horse is 26" tall, his legs are NOT going to be 30" long! And YES he has sired a dwarf, or more, and has also sired some great get as well, far surpassing the lesser quality foals, I might add.

Kindly stop implying that I am STUPID. I know a 26" horse is not going to be leggy. DUH. Geeeeeez. But they SHOULD be somewhat proportionate .... as many of yours are, Tony.

Husseler - WAS NOT. And siring a dwarf - or "more" ... many more I fear - is what this thread is about... just another marker to look for as we seek to improve the breed and slowly eliminate the dwarf gene...

I also know that some stallions get coarser and bulkier as they age. What I saw was not age-related.... but conformation and structure.

And many of us have said REPEATEDLY that horses many generations back may have little direct influence on the foals born now. But to say that this line or that line bred here does not have the dwarf influence/gene in it.... is short-sighted. They say the mark of a good stallion is that his get are an improvement over him... thus Husseler has done well - when you look at it that way.

Never mind. I should know better. I am off to the barn to clean some more and let my adopted little dwarf buddy, Cowboy, trail along behind me and snuffle and talk and ask for scratches... he does not care who contributed to his plight (stallion gelded, mare no longer bred) - he thinks he is just about perfect....

 

[Songcatcher]

[i only hope that if there ever is a test, that then, the positive horses will be gelded and or removed from the breeding sheds.

534824[/snapback]

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IF there ever is a test to prove a dwarf gene and IF it is proven that the gene MUST come from BOTH parents, it would not be necessary to geld or remove horses from the breeding programs as a CARRIER bred to a NON-CARRIER MIGHT produce a CARRIER, but never a DWARF.

Lots of "IFS". I certainly wish there were a test. I would certainly test mine.

 

[Margaret]

If we are to ever reduce/eliminate the dwarf gene we must start by making wise decisions, and choose to not cross breed the possible dwarf carriers- (not visually evident), to the more visually evident carriers. And one must use the visual structure of the mini to access this. The short legged ones, with the disproportinate body parts, most likely are the minimal expressed, that have one gene. I believe we can all attest to at least seeing one horse showing these charactistics on this post. This is what is paramount..in order to lessen the likelyhood of creating another dwarf, it is good to avoid the breeding with these types, as it is likely that most like that, will carry one dwarf gene.

 

[Sue_C.]

IF there ever is a test to prove a dwarf gene and IF it is proven that the gene MUST come from BOTH parents, it would not be necessary to geld or remove horses from the breeding programs as a CARRIER bred to a NON-CARRIER MIGHT produce a CARRIER, but never a DWARF.

If it is say, like the testing for HYPP; then a horse can be P/P, N/P, or N/N. The horses that are P/P, are not allowed to be bred, as they will positively pass on the Hypp, whereas the P/N's, as long as they are bred to N/N horses...will not. So, yes, it is perfectly reasonable that some horses will be gelded , spayed or somehow removed from the gene-pool.

I too will test, when and if, this test ever becomes available.

 

[horsehug]

If I understand it correctly, yes the P/P would be comparable to D/D If the dwarf genes work the same way, and it would be a True dwarf as opposed to just a carrier of one copy of the gene.

And yes I totally agree that dwarfs need to be gelded or removed from the gene pool. I definitely had my little Hal gelded.

Susan O.

 

[Minimor]

Tag--I thought you were very brave to speak up about Husseler on this thread. I've thought the same things you've said, only of course I never saw him in person, only in 2 different photos. I've thought his head was overly large & his legs overly short--dwarf characteristics if not an actual dwarf. Just because he sold for a huge price (at least at the time it would have been considered a huge price) doesn't make him a shining example of the perfect Mini. And of course what was acceptable back then isn't exactly what is desirable now. I do have a couple horses that go back to Husseler, quite a few generations back. Perhaps the dwarf gene is hiding in them, perhaps not--they are well proportioned horses, nothing at all dwarfy about them. So, I can only hope...

I think in some cases there is a very fine line between horses which actually show dwarf characteristics and those that simply have bad conformation. When I look at the photos of Bond Tiny Tim I do see the dwarf people say that he was. When I look at the posted photo of Bond Bulldog I don't see dwarf--in my opinion he was just poorly conformed.

Small or tall has nothing to do with what I find acceptable--whether it's 29" or 36" tall, I have no use for a horse that is short legged, short necked, big headed & long bodied. Obviously a 26" horse cannot have 30" legs, but his legs should still be in proportion to his body; disproportionately (sp??) long heads are an issue with many minis, but there's a difference IMO between a longer than ideal head that is refined & well shaped and a big long, coarse head that's much too big & heavy for the size of the horse.

Obviously there are breeders who feel a certain percentage of dwarves is an acceptable risk. While a test would certainly enable them to breed carriers to only non-carriers, that does still produce a certain percentage of carriers. Other breeders would like to eliminate carriers. The lovely thing about having a test available, it would allow people to choose--if you wish to breed carriers, you'd be able to do it carefully, without risk of producing a full blown dwarf (working on the assumption that it does take both parents to create a dwarf). If you wish to breed only non-carriers, then you would have that option available.

 

[kaykay]

i was so relieved that we could all discuss dwarfism on the other thread and no one got personal and the thread stayed very civilized. So it makes me sad to see this one take such a bad turn and get so personal. I know we are all passionate about it but this bickering just wont help a thing. I really wish instead of debating the issues we could put this much energy into getting research done so we can have a test. Many people have come on this forum and said they would get it done and even asked for donations but as of yet it still isnt even close to being organized or done. If we could all just band together this research and test could be a reality. but if we keep just debating it and wishing for a test it WILL NEVER get done!!