How do you look for Dwarfs in Pedigree?

[Minimor]

I expect you're right kaykay, it will never get done, or at least it will be many, many years down the road, simply because there are so many money people that don't want it to happen. I figured that one out some time ago!

 

[tagalong]

i was so relieved that we could all discuss dwarfism on the other thread and no one got personal and the thread stayed very civilized.  So it makes me sad to see this one take such a bad turn and get so personal.  I know we are all passionate about it but this bickering just wont help a thing.

I don't really see bickering, kaykay - just opinions being shared. Trust me - on many message boards this thread would not even be seen as a ripple. I have only seen a few over the top threads on this forum in all the time I have been here - and this is not one of them. I think all sides of the dwarf issue should be addressed - and that includes discussing the past. OPENLY. And honestly. Sharing our views and concerns. Contrary to what some feel, that is not a bad thing. We all need to examine such things - without implying that people are ignorant - as a PM I received about this thread was only too glad to inform me I was. But that's okay - others have said GO! How sad that they feel they cannot speak up.... not that I blame them. It only gets you a sh.... errrm... stuffload of trouble....

And if we could get a test - and determine the carriers - and breed them only to non-carriers and thus weed out the gene slowly without removing quality horses from the gene pool... I know the little herd I care for would be happily jumping into line to be tested...

 

[Sue_C.]

I expect you're right kaykay, it will never get done, or at least it will be many, many years down the road, simply because there are so many money people that don't want it to happen.

Well, isn't there testing under-way in the Freisian breed Association? A horse is a horse...why not donate $$ to help with THEIR testing? Once it is found, it will be available to all, I would assume; not just that one breed alone.

 

[user 488]

I think all sides of the dwarf issue should be addressed - and that includes discussing the past. OPENLY. And honestly. Sharing our views and concerns.  Contrary to what some feel, that is not a bad thing. We all need to examine such things - without implying that people are ignorant - as a PM I received about this thread was only too glad to inform me I was. But that's okay - others have said GO! How sad that they feel they cannot speak up.... not that I blame them. It only gets you a sh.... errrm... stuffload of trouble....

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The IGNORANT one is the one doing the PMing. The other ignorant ones are the ones that do not want to ATLEAST TRY TO FIND OUT.

I expect you're right kaykay, it will never get done, or at least it will be many, many years down the road, simply because there are so many money people that don't want it to happen. I figured that one out some time ago!

Well, I kind of feel the same way. I just cannot imagine people being this close minded and not wanting to ATLEAST KNOW! It's AMAZING!!!!! So don't test if you don't want to, but atleast get educated. That is about all I can stomach to say.

It's way below the mentality I am use to.

 

[kaykay]

just want to clarify what i said for those not paging back. here is the whole quote

If we could all just band together this research and test could be a reality. but if we keep just debating it and wishing for a test it WILL NEVER get done!!

We have to stop just talking and do something!! thats my point

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]I have been good for several posts....lol, While I say that Tony has more experience with the Tiny ones than I do ...... I still stick to my initial post about these two stallions and a few others. Some of the Tinys that Tony and Charlotte have are VERY balanced for their short stature and show not even the remotest hint of dwarfism..... That said. I totally agree with Tagalong and Minimor. I have learned over the years what bloodlines to steer clear of.... While I do agree that Bond horses for the most part have pretty heads.... I find a majority of them to show characteristics that I am not wanting. Pm ing people that you dont agree with calling them ignorant is an ignorant thing to do![/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[user 488]

just want to clarify what i said for those not paging back.  here is the whole quote
If we could all just band together this research and test could be a reality. but if we keep just debating it and wishing for a test it WILL NEVER get done!!

We have to stop just talking and do something!! thats my point

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EXACTLY KAY!

But this goes hand in hand with most anything! Talking about it is great. Doing something about it is much greater! I guess I am just not very good at watching people talk about the same thing year after year and never doing anything. So where do you go from here? More talk? (Bla, Bla, Bla and a lot of chatter

) or a lot more ACTION?

And BTW......this isn't about who likes the small or tall. All sizes can produce dwarves.

 

[tagalong]

Doing something about it is much greater!  I guess I am just not very good at watching people talk about the same thing year after year and never doing anything.  So where do you go from here?  More talk? (Bla, Bla, Bla and a lot of chatter

) or a lot more ACTION?

This is the kind of thing that should be brought up and dealt with at the General Meetings. But no - money talks. I fear that certain big breeders who swear up and down and back and forth that they have never produced a dwarf (uh huh...) would not go along with such a thing. It's the NIMBY syndrome.

Not In My Barn Yard....

 

[JennyB]

[SIZE=12pt]I don't post often here, but I wanted to say that I firmly believe that MANY miniature lines carry the dwarf gene. A test would be a wonderful thing...many believing it will open a can of worms and others wanting to test their own miniatures. [/SIZE]

The point here is do you as breeders of the fine Miniature horses want to continue to breed and produce TOP QUAILITY individuals? Well, yes you say! The genetic markers will always be there if you don't know and don't cull...

and I know that sounds scary..it IS

The reason I think the public should know who was a dwarf like Bond Tiny Tim, a minimal dwarf and/or produced a dwarf/dwarfs are for the new folks out there who really want to know. Isn't it their right to know what the past has produced!?! It's very sad to get a dwarf foal and even though none may know when it will really happen, at least breeders can be informed of who they want in their pedigree's. Don't you think that is fair ?

I agree with Tagalong and some others too, to quit hiding your heads in the sand. Tony you have been breeding along time, and a very respected breeder I might add with a wonderful group of Miniatures. Even though you gain great deals of dollars for your stock, don't you think that by telling everyone which ponies/minis were/are at risk you are only going to improve them when they do close all books and they become a true breed? Or would this hurt yours and others businesses too much?

Take for instances if the AMHA and AMHR were to truely close their books and not allow any others into the registries even for a high fee, then the genetic test would come out. The findings would show that 50+% of all Miniature horses are positive for producing dwarfs. That leaves -50% who are negative for dwarfism...that gene pool would be reduced by a lot if people really did their homework and truly wanted to improve the Miniature horses by culling. Not many to work on, but a better start.

Instead why don't breeders give other breeders the chance to make that opinion NOW before hand. Even though without the gene test they wouldn't be able to know for sure. It is true that getting further away from a dwarf in pedigree lessens the chances, but when I see pedigree's who are dotted with the same individuals who might be in question that is when the troubles can start. Line-breedings and in-breeding for many years for certain characteristics is a good thing, but can also be bad, by hiding genetic problems. It is this way with all breeds. They all have their boogie-lines to watch out for...

When the QH folks finally realized who was responsible for HYPP that being, Impressive- at first I am sure breeders were stunned that such a great stallion could be causing such a terrible problem, but the QHR dealt with the problem in the right way, they having testing now and a breeder can choose to include Impressive in their lines or not. They have also recently exposed that some sons of King are carriers of another problem with a hide(skin). The Arabian breeders for years fought to understand SIDs and also got a test to expose those Arabians carrying the bad gene. They even post the names of carriers to the breeders, so it's THEIR choice to breed or not to breed. Those are Responsible Registries! Now these organizations have been in existance for a much longer period than the Miniature horses and the funding was there for the research. This then takes us back to what many here have said...do the research and find a test! This will take time and money, but well worth it I believe

In the meantime breeders think about starting a list of indivduals who are suspect of the dwarfism gene, not to de-mean them as many have produced excellent foals, but to let breeders make the decisions themselves of who they really want in their bloodlines right now...

Start building this list and I don't think that chatting about this issue(which is pretty important in my opinion) is a bad thing...sure tempers might flare for time to time, probably more so with this issue than any others. We need to learn, learn and learn more so we can make correct judgements in future years of breeding the wonderful Miniature horses that we all own and LOVE

Don't you think?

Maybe we need a special area like the pony chat for just this subject because I don't think the discussion about dwarfism and it's subjects should EVER stop!

Yours truly, and if I offended anyone I am sorry, but you can't make all the people happy all the time. If you are breeding any kind of animals responsibly and learning to take some HEAT for what you LOVE and believe in are all part of LIFE!

Jenny

 

[Joyce]

I'm another "tiny" lover and proud of it. Though I always admire a taller mini, my favorites are the little ones and my breeding program was based on "small." And I will add that I do admire Tony's breeding program and others who also breed the smaller ones.

 

[slaneyrose]

I'm another "tiny" lover and proud of it.  Though I always admire a taller mini, my favorites are the little ones and my breeding program was based on "small."  And I will add that I do admire Tony's breeding program and others who also breed the smaller ones.

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Well obviously we all love the tiny ones......we all have miniatures....but personally I would rather have a 34" miniature horse that looks like a horse....with a horses proportions than a 28" teeny that doesnt!! This isnt about tall or tiny minis is it? Its about responsible breeding to avoid those poor little souls who end up suffering because breeders are putting size before confirmation. I couldnt read the link Tony put in his comment but would love to know do either of the american registries have what and how many dwarf characteristics are allowable either to register or when showing??? I havent been able to find any so far and would think it to be of great importance. I think people who think its ok to use horses that are, or produce dwarfs however minimal have their priorities wrong and are not putting the welfare of this breed first...in my opinion, that is wrong!!!

 

[Songcatcher]

Well obviously we all love the tiny ones......we all have miniatures....but personally I would rather have a 34" miniature horse that looks like a horse....with a horses proportions than a 28" teeny that doesnt!!

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Welcome to the Forum slaneyrose. There is a tremendous amount of truth in what you have said, but it "seems" to imply that a 28" horse CANNOT have the correct proportions that a 34" horse can. I and many others do not believe that is true. I know that may not be what you meant to imply, but there are several who do insinuate that small equals incorrect. Personally, I would prefer an 18" horse with CORRECT proportions. However, I don't see that happening in my lifetime.

 

[wwminis]

[SIZE=14pt]Well, Folks here's my take on this subject! Having been a small breeder for several years and breeding the tinnies, as you call them! I have posted my little dwarf Angel many, many times on the forum! Angel is the product of a 32.5" National Champion mare that was breed when I bought her to a 31" National Champion Stallion![/SIZE]

So see, you can get a dwarf from any size horse. And any bloodline!

Bill

 

[slaneyrose]

[SIZE=14pt]Well, Folks here's my take on this subject! Having been a small breeder for several years and breeding the tinnies, as you call them! I have posted my little dwarf Angel many, many times on the forum! Angel is the product of a 32.5" National Champion mare that was breed when I bought her to a 31" National Champion Stallion![/SIZE]So see, you can get a dwarf from any size horse. And any bloodline!

Bill

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wwminis This is the point being made here isnt it? A reason for knowing which horses produce dwarfs and having the right to be told and decide whether to buy from this line for your own breeding line???

Songdancer, thanks for the welcome And of course I wasnt saying tiny ones cant be in proportion....I have a 28" who is perfectly proportioned but I also have a 34" mare who has teeny tiny foals (also in proportion) my point is that the proportion comes first......not the size. I too think it would be great to have perfect horses that were only 20" high but seriously doubt that will ever happen, nature has a way of putting limits on things.

 

[Buckskin gal]

Thank you for saying this. I so wish that we all had the right, which you mention so we could make the best choices possible for producing the finest miniatures we can. I would like to avoid ever producing a dwarf but without information, there is a more of a possibility of producing one. True, not every dwarf may come about because of it's genes [maybe there are dwarfs produced by invironmental factors]

but we need as much information as possible so we can do the best we can.

There is a standard of perfection we need to breed by and that standard does not call for dwarfy traits. Thanks to everyone who will share information which may keep the rest of us from ever having to see a dwarf born from our mares. I would welcome any pm's if you don't want to put it on the forum. Mary

[SIZE=12pt]I [/SIZE]The point here is do you as breeders of the fine Miniature horses want to continue to breed and produce TOP QUAILITY individuals? Well, yes you say! The genetic markers will always be there if you don't know and don't cull... 

 

and I know that sounds scary..it IS 

The reason I think the public should know who was a dwarf like Bond Tiny Tim, a minimal dwarf and/or produced a dwarf/dwarfs are for the new folks out there who really want to know. Isn't it their right to know what the past has produced!?! It's very sad to get a dwarf foal and even though none may know when it will really happen, at least breeders can be informed of who they want in their pedigree's. Don't you think that is fair ? 

I agree with Tagalong and some others too, to quit hiding your heads in the sand. Tony you have been breeding along time, and a very respected breeder I might add with a wonderful group of Miniatures. Even though you gain great deals of dollars for your stock, don't you think that by telling everyone which ponies/minis were/are at risk you are only going to improve them when they do close all books and they become a true breed?  Or would this hurt yours and others businesses too much? 

Take for instances if the AMHA and AMHR were to truely close their books and not allow any others into the registries even for a high fee, then the genetic test would come out. The findings would show that 50+% of all Miniature horses are positive for producing dwarfs. That leaves -50% who are negative for dwarfism...that gene pool would be reduced by a lot if people really did their homework and truly wanted to improve the Miniature horses by culling. Not many to work on, but a better start. 

Instead why don't breeders give other breeders the chance to make that opinion NOW before hand. Even though without the gene test they wouldn't be able to know for sure. It is true that getting further away from a dwarf in pedigree lessens the chances, but when I see pedigree's who are dotted with the same individuals who might be in question that is when the troubles can start. Line-breedings and in-breeding for many years for certain characteristics is a good thing, but can also be bad, by hiding genetic problems. It is this way with all breeds. They all have their boogie-lines to watch out for...

When the QH folks finally realized who was responsible for HYPP that being, Impressive- at first I am sure breeders were stunned that such a great stallion could be causing such a terrible problem, but the QHR dealt with the problem in the right way, they having testing now and a breeder can choose to include Impressive in their lines or not. They have also recently exposed that some sons of King are carriers of another problem with a hide(skin). The Arabian breeders for years fought to understand SIDs and also got a test to expose those Arabians carrying the bad gene. They even post the names of carriers to the breeders, so it's THEIR choice to breed or not to breed. Those are Responsible Registries! Now these organizations have been in existance for a much longer period than the Miniature horses and the funding was there for the research. This then takes us back to what many here have said...do the research and find a test! This will take time and money, but well worth it I believe 

In the meantime breeders think about starting a list of indivduals who are suspect of the dwarfism gene, not to de-mean them as many have produced excellent foals, but to let breeders make the decisions themselves of who they really want in their bloodlines right now...

  Start building this list and I don't think that chatting about this issue(which is pretty important in my opinion) is a bad thing...sure tempers might flare for time to time, probably more so with this issue than any others. We need to learn, learn and learn more so we can make correct judgements in future years of breeding the wonderful Miniature horses that we all own and LOVE 

Don't you think? 

Maybe we need a special area like the pony chat for just this subject because I don't think the discussion about dwarfism and it's subjects should EVER stop!

Yours truly, and if I offended anyone I am sorry, but you can't make all the people happy all the time. If you are breeding any kind of animals responsibly and learning to take some HEAT for what you LOVE and believe in are all part of LIFE!

Jenny

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[attwoode]

I generally don't post on controversial subjects for a couple of different reasons, but here is my take on the subject of dwarves:

It is clear that dwarf horses and those carrying the genes have been used in the development of the miniature horse in the past. Those genes are now pretty much found throughout the breed and can pop up out of just about any breeding. I hope that nobody is knowingly breeding dwarves anymore, but I think that is a thing of the past. As we continue to learn more, I suspect that we can all continue to make more educated decisions on the subject and some currently accepted practices may change. The truth is that we don't know what horses carry these genes or even how these genes work. Until we know more about the genetics of dwarfism and can make these educated decisions, I don't feel there are any right answers to this debate.

Some of the bloodlines that have produced dwarves have also produced some of the breed's nicest specimens of proportion and conformation. Still, it is equally important to improve the breed in ways that are not visible with the eye. Prevention of general health problems, dwarfism, and the economic loss of aborted dwarf foals or other infertility associated with dwarfism, should be a major concern for improvement of the breed as well as general appearance.

I would hope that we all agree that it is an important goal for the future to find ways to identify and isolate these genes so that we can all continue to improve the breed in many different ways.

In the meanwhile, we should all make our decisions based on the best information we have available to us. This is a business for some and hobby for others. We each need to make the best choices for ourselves.

I also would like to offer my opinion that smaller horses tend to have proportions that look more dwarf-like. These features or "dwarfism characteristics" may indicate that the horse carries dwarf genes or it may just be caused by proportional distortion that occurs with a reduced size. Anyway, what I'm saying is that a horse that appears to have some faults that appear dwarf-like may just simply appear that way and gorgeous horses can and do produce dwarves. We all have to make our on individual decisions on the matter since we have so few answers.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Dandy's original post was about researching 'known dwarves'. Well, we can see

what a hot button topic this is for everyone! I do honestly believe we all have the same goal of producing the best possible miniature horses (regardless of size), and regardless how we all chose to approach this subject.

I personally do not deny the less than perfect minis in the backgrounds of my minis and/or miniature horses at a breed. I've cringed at some of the photos I've seen of some of the foundation stock that were used back in the late 60's/early 70's. But I don't believe the breeding was planned with malice or intent to harm - it was to create a smaller breed of horse. Good or bad decision - it's done. We need to move on from there.

So, Dandy, first - good for you for wanting to educate yourself, second - if you want to truly get an education there are plenty of photos and information available online about the early minis and lots of good websites too. (do a google search!) The online studbooks are available from both registries as well. These are a great tool and you can trace the lines out, down, back, etc.

You can then formulate your own opinion based on your own independent research. Please take everyone's opinion for just that - opinion. Don't lump any farm name's breeding program (Breeder ABC only bred . . .) into one group. There are some dwarves, dwarfy, average, good and stellar lines from many of the early breeders. It's just not that black and white of an issue.

As for those chickens that PM negative statements to people - sorry that is mean spirited, poor taste and just plain bad manners. We all have the right to our own opinion and we should be able to state it without fear of reprisals. If you stand up for what you believe - sign your name on your message and put it out there for everyone - no sneak attacks!

 

[kaykay]

i think there is a lot in john eberths letter that gets missed because people just skim over it and dont read the entire thing. Lets just take out a couple key points

There has been some research done, pretty much all done by UC Davis Genetics Lab and University of Kentucky Equine Genetics Lab. Both have preliminary information but there is nothing that I know of as of now that is anything other than speculative and no formal articles or definitive results. This is because of lack of public funding from AMHA or any other donator.

My research is privately funded by me, so it is taking much more time than normal. I am not doing this as an ego trip, but on the contrary, my business and my life has been in this breed, so that said, I am looking to better the breed not for me, but for it as a whole. This has nothing to do with bloodlines or farm names, but of breeding a better horse, and making it easier for everyone to do so. Because believe me, there are lots of horses of all bloodlines that are carriers, but there are some statistically that are definitely not carriers, so it is just a matter of time and money to find the mutated gene and develop a marker for a test for it.

So there you have it. One person trying to find and do a study with very little help from anyone.

I would think that if someone got in contact with John and asked if we all donated to his study etc how far could we get then?? IMO it is better to start with John as he has studied this probably more then any other living person to date. Since he worked with Ann Bowling (whose dwarf research was lost)and several universities this seems the best place to start.

 

[beaminewbie]

How do you get ahold of John? What about setting up a fund so people can put their money where their mouth is!! If AMHA and AMHR don't want to fund it then why can't we as mini owners do it ourselves, instead of just talking about it? There has to be a way to have John set something up to fund his research or to get one of the Universities involved. If we as owners put as much effort into trying to get a fund set up as we do in discussing it then we can get it done. Is anyone interested in finding out how to do it or can someone tell me how to get ahold of John and I will get the ball rolling.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

i
There has been some research done, pretty much all done by UC Davis Genetics Lab and University of Kentucky Equine Genetics Lab. Both have preliminary information but there is nothing that I know of as of now that is anything other than speculative and no formal articles or definitive results. This is because of lack of public funding from AMHA or any other donator.

So

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I agree that something needs to be done and the first thing is us as a group really putting pressure on the registries OUR registries to do something and worry about donor mares and AI later

Even something as simple as adding a check box on a work order form to pay for DWARF research only and of course a way to track that so the money went where it should would be a great start.