How do YOU teach Whoa!

[Carriage]

If the horse performs the whoa correctly he is praised and rewarded. If he does not do this correctly the lesson continues until it is done right, as soon as I get the response I want I quit this session. I do not continue until he gets it wrong again. We end our session on a good note.

Yes Skanzler, I agree, this is training vs ignoring

These horses are asked to stand for a long time in the halter class and asked to look to us for praise and reward, NOT FEAR of retribution....

Absolutly, again training vs ignoring.

Yes this takes longer than the yank and shank, but there really is no reason for this unless you have an extremely aggresive, dangerous animal that needs a firmer hand for saftely sake.

Also agreed, each horse is different and may require different motivational techniques. This requires that you know and are in tune with your horse. What ever the snipe was about mininik, I would never advocate cruelty and I'm quite sure neither would anyone else on this thread.

My point was simple, ignoring an unwanted and possibly dangerous behavior is not training.

 

[Freezin Cold B]

The way I was taught, and the way that works for me is to back them. It's the way my mom was taught with the Arabs and it's the way she taught me with the Minis. Considering she's spent over 30 years showing horses nation wide, and she's worked with many of the biggest Arab halter trainers, I'll trust her technique. It's always worked for us (when we've had the time). Unfortuantely, we don't really have the time to properly train WHOA due to her work schedual and my college schedual (thank god its almost over!)

 

[skanzler]

Backing is not the problem, it is the extreme way it is done that is the issue. And just because something has always been done does not mean that it is the right way.

I have been involved with horse for over 30 years, and I started in the big horse breeds, like most of us. And I would watch these big name trainers (and thier students) backing thier horses almost the full length of the arena, and this proved what???????

That they were "in control". Prove to me that this is the only way to teach a horse to go forward or stand still or pivot or whatever.

Tell me the mechanics of that particular way of training. Break it down, as the horse percieves it and I might then come to understand.

I had a "trainer" use my barn one year. She was a big horse trainer and she would work her horse into a lather. She would repeat an exercise until the horse did it right and then continue that exercise until he did it wrong again, repremind him for it, get off take him to his stall tie him in a corner, full saddled and lathered. Told me to leave him. The next morning he was still tied, no water, no food. She came that afternoon, united him and worked him again.

Needless to say she was gone that next day. Now you tell me what that taught that horse.......NOTHING

These animals put thier trust, thier wellfare, their very lives into our hands. And how do we repay them?

Think about that the next time you are "training" your horse to do something to simply satisfy your desire.

 

[txminipinto]

My philosphy on training is make the right thing easy to do and the wrong thing hard to do. However you interept that is up to you. They almost always choose the easy way when presented with the hard way.

 

[Carriage]

Agreed tx, a good way to go.

Skanzler, I was in agreement with you.

Bb

 

[mininik]

Bb, ignoring CAN be part of training. You don't always need to be what humans interpret as "the boss," "alpha dog" or "lead mare." How much would you respect me if all I did was speak in tongues and physically manipulate or correct you every time you did something instead of what I was asking? If you ignore unwanted behaviors or redirect the animal (without punishment), then use positive reinforcement to reward desired behaviors, an animal will eventually phase out the undesirable behavior in favor of what gets it the reward.

 

[txminipinto]

Bb, ignoring CAN be part of training. You don't always need to be what humans interpret as "the boss," "alpha dog" or "lead mare." How much would you respect me if all I did was speak in tongues and physically manipulate or correct you every time you did something instead of what I was asking? If you ignore unwanted behaviors or redirect the animal (without punishment), then use positive reinforcement to reward desired behaviors, an animal will eventually phase out the undesirable behavior in favor of what gets it the reward.

I agree with this on certain unwanted behaviors. Like my stallion biting me. He does it as a game. If I react to him, it's an award. I swear he tells the other horses "watch this, she really gets mad when I do this!". But, I don't think it has a place for everything. Just like with children, there needs to be a balance between positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. Neither work for all behaviors or cues.

 

[Carriage]

If you ignore unwanted behaviors or

Not training and IMO not good.

redirect the animal (without punishment), then use positive reinforcement to reward desired behaviors,

Training which is good but oh by the way according to your words previously domination as well. You are "redirecting", "using positive reinforcement" and "rewarding desired behaviours". All of these behaviours can only be done by domination no matter how benign.

In closing on this, I will humbly disagree that you need not be the "boss, lead or alpha" of your animals. None of these labels has to have negitive onus at any time and can and should always be a positive thing for the animals well-fare as well as yours. As you are responsible for your animals welfare that pretty well makes you the boss eh? Responsibility cannot exist without authority. Its a question of how that authority is used.

Bb

 

[mininik]

I'm sorry you think that domination is the only way to redirect a behavior, or gain an animal's trust and respect. Do you suppose they spank the dolphins, sealions and walrus at Seaworld to train them? There are a variety of ways to redirect without making it negative, or you can use a negative, but I have chosen to never use anything more than an aversive sound (such as SCHT!). I see no point in raising my voice, physically hitting an animal or jerking their restraints when I can train without these negative reinforcements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgjpERCv4-E...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbJ6aET43eQ...feature=related

 

[Freezin Cold B]

Anything can be overdone. Backing, yelling, yanking, ect... There isn't a single form of discipline that can't be taken to the extreme. I personally feel that backing is the best way FOR ME. That doesn't mean it'll work for others. I just wanted to explain how I learned it and why I think it works.

If my horse is trained correctly, I won't need to back it across the arena to get it under control. Unfortunately, we've been training on the go the past few years. If my horse isn't trained to stand before going to a show, I don't expect them to stand AT the show. It's just a learning experience for them.

I have backed my horse across the barn before. It's not to prove I'm in control, its because horses don't like to back. I'm not going to hit the horse or yank on it and yell. I'm going to back it. Because it's something the horse doesn't like, but I'm not going to hurt the horse. I'm teaching it. However, I do reward good behavior with grass and treats.

Ignore the bad behavior? That seems illogical. How did your parents teach you what was good behavior and what was bad? How do you teach a child what is good behavior and what is bad? Whoever or whatever you are (animal, people, ect..) if you don't know that you've done something bad, how will you know to correct it? If you just get rewards and no corrections, then you will do just enough to get the reward. Tell a child they can have a puppy if they clean their room for a month, that room will be sparkling clean. Once that month is over and that puppy is home, no more clean room.

 

[mininik]

Here you go, a fun article about ignoring undesirable behaviors, reinforcing desirable behaviors and how it works:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/fashion/...ml?pagewanted=1

 

[txminipinto]

This topic has really gone off topic which is fine because a good discussion brings about knowledge. I like to study animal behavior and how they interact with each other. That interaction is THEIR language. They understand it and respect it. In every herd or pack of animals there is an alpha. In my barn with my horses or in my house with my dogs, I am the alpha. As long as there is respect, there is peace. Now this isn't to say that I don't "ignore" certain behaviors. I typically ignore any ATTENTION SEEKING behavior such as barking from the dogs or my stallion nipping (and I only ignore the nipping after I wore myself out striking back - he's proven it's a game). But that's not to say that's the best way to handle that situation with every animal. I have another stallion that if I so much raise my voice at him he cowers (and he's NEVER been hit) yet the nipper just wants to be hit more (attention seeking).

Basically, what I'm saying is if you work within THEIR language (body language) training is much more easier. Yes, you can click and treat train and yes, you can jerk and shank train, but what they understand best is their language.

 

[Carriage]

Well I supose I should give up.

I'm sorry you are not hearing me and assuming things not demonstrated or said by me. Where in the world did the "treats" coment come from? I have never been inclined towards, nor do I advocate treat training.

The mere fact that you are using these GOOD training methods CLEARLY demonstrates that you are the dominant party of the relationship. This is not a bad thing. It is good and your job. But you ARE in the dominant position by the very fact that you are training the animal.

You said, an animal will eventually phase out the undesirable behavior in favor of what gets it the reward.

Who is giving this reward? You?

Two points

1) The animal doesn't "phase" out of undesirable behaviour, it is being trained out of it via reward BY you

2) The mere fact that you can withhold or grant reward should be a clear indicator of who is in charge.

I commend you for your methods and find myself in agreement with you on much however I entered the discussion specific to ignoring undesirable behaviour and still maintain that this is most generally not good for you or the animal.

However if I'm reading you right I'm guessing that you really don't do much if any ignoring and favor positive training instead. If so we are in agreement.

 

[mininik]

Treats are just another way to reward desirable behavior. All the videos I have posted so far show animals working for rewards of one kind or another. Those animals aren't doing what's asked because they don't want to get punished, they are doing it because they want a reward:

<<< Horses!
Who wouldn't advocate results like that?

As far as how much I ignore behaviors, I actually ignore quite a few in my dogs including accidents in the house, jumping up, over excitement, begging, etc. While walking my pony recently he went to bite and I ignored it. He exhibited the same behavior twice more and then quit for the rest of the walk. Do I consider him cured of biting, no, but I don't feel he'd be any better for it had I yelled at or hit him on or yanked his lead instead. When he was behaving nicely on the end of the lead, he got a rewarding scritch in his favorite spot.