I know it's been asked before, but please clairify App color

[AnnaC]

It's me again! Sorry but just checked the pics of Muffin on my 'for sale' page and realised that the 'foal' pic of him doesn't show the colouring I was talking about! At birth he was that white/pink colour ALL OVER - no roaning to be seen anywhere - with clear spots from head to tail. He started roaning out slowly from about 5 weeks. So I could have called him a full leopard for that 5 weeks! But considering the colour of his parents, there was no way he was going to stay leopard.

Anna

 

[shelia]

It's me again! Sorry but just checked the pics of Muffin on my 'for sale' page and realised that the 'foal' pic of him doesn't show the colouring I was talking about! At birth he was that white/pink colour ALL OVER - no roaning to be seen anywhere - with clear spots from head to tail. He started roaning out slowly from about 5 weeks. So I could have called him a full leopard for that 5 weeks! But considering the colour of his parents, there was no way he was going to stay leopard.

Anna

I haven't seen pictures of this colt you are talking about, but These minis seem to have a more condensed version of color than there larger cousins. It's almost like the have the same amount of hair squeezed onto there small bodies. It is longer too. This, I believe gives the illusion that they are more colored. If it were a larger horse the hairs might not show up so much and would be considered a true leopard. Some appys do get that reverse roaning, but some just have it in the winter and then it sheds back in summer. I think this whole Leopard/near leopard thing is just splitting hairs. (LOL!) I used to think it was a big deal That a horse was born true leopard at birth, but The more I have learned about appy genetics and have seen what they can produce, I don't see it making much difference in the long run. Either way PATN1 is there. That is what you are hoping to pass on. There are certain genes that suppress the color enough to cause that darker shading. There are helper genes that will show that white background more. It just depends on what they are bred to. There are no test for these. You can go to the appaloosa project website and find lots of information about it.

Shelia B.

 

[AnnaC]

Hi Sheila. I think what you said about 'spotty' colouring in minis is very true! It is just on the early posts here, the consensus was that to be a 'full leopard spot' a foal was always born with a 'pale' coloured body and with full/clear spots all over. Whereas 'part leopards' were born with roaning on heads/necks and legs and some spots on the body area. I just posted to say that my 'part/near leopard' spotty was actually born 'full leopard' and roaned out later!! Well there's always one to beat the rules isn't there?

Anna

 

[shelia]

Hi Sheila. I think what you said about 'spotty' colouring in minis is very true! It is just on the early posts here, the consensus was that to be a 'full leopard spot' a foal was always born with a 'pale' coloured body and with full/clear spots all over. Whereas 'part leopards' were born with roaning on heads/necks and legs and some spots on the body area. I just posted to say that my 'part/near leopard' spotty was actually born 'full leopard' and roaned out later!! Well there's always one to beat the rules isn't there?

Anna

Yes those are the rules. I am sure that a lot lot of people may not agree with my opinion. I have seen minis that were born nose to toes leopards and people should be very proud of them, but with the research that is being done now it is clear to me that you can produce that with a near leopard just as easily as a true leopard. However you can not get a leopard from a small blanket. The genes just aren't there. When it comes to color minis seem to be in a league of there own. When breeding appys you get thrown lots of curves!

Shelia

 

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

I have seen minis that were born nose to toes leopards and people should be very proud of them, but with the research that is being done now it is clear to me that you can produce that with a near leopard just as easily as a true leopard.

Yes a near leopard can easily produce a leopard foal just as a leopard or few spot leopard can, I don't think anyone here said that a Near Leopard could not produce a true leopard foal..

However you can not get a leopard from a small blanket. The genes just aren't there.

I'm not sure I'm getting what you're meaning, are you saying that a blanketed horse can not produce a true leopard period?

 

[shelia]

I am saying one with a small blanket. Although with minis I have seen leopards come out of medium sized blankets and I have seen leopards come from mares that are just roaning and don't appear to have a pattern at all. According to the so called rules this should not happen. I should take back my statement and just say that I have never seen it happen and would not trust it to happen. The best chance of getting leopards is to start with leopards or near leopards. (Well of course fewspots, but that is a different subject)

Shelia

 

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

Ok got ya now!

I do know of a LOUD black leopard mare, was born head to tail in spots and was quite the surprise to her owners as her sire is solid bay with only characteristics, his background includes several spotted blanket appaloosas (blanket/spots only on their hips), solid appaloosas and a handful of QH and thoroughbreds. This mare's dam herself is also solid, her sire is a quarter horse, and dam is a characteristic only appaloosa but goes back to 2 leopards WAAAAAAY back in her pedigree.. Neither the sire nor the dam had thrown any form of leopard foals, crossed them together and voila a LOUD black leopard filly..

Like I said earlier, *I* think that many times there are more than one pattern present (just like with the pintos etc) and the degree of expression is different and that with the multiple patterns, some are expressed more becoming "more dominant" and cover up the other patterns the horse is carrying, and I think that when you throw the varnish roaning gene in there, it aids in mimicking patterns as it changes the horse's pattern itself over time.. I think this is why it sometimes becomes very hard to distinctly identify one horse's pattern or another.. And of course not everyone will agree on what to call what pattern

and until more research is done and there's definitive proof, we'll just keep on guessing and being surprised!! lol

 

[shelia]

Ok got ya now!

I do know of a LOUD black leopard mare, was born head to tail in spots and was quite the surprise to her owners as her sire is solid bay with only characteristics, his background includes several spotted blanket appaloosas (blanket/spots only on their hips), solid appaloosas and a handful of QH and thoroughbreds. This mare's dam herself is also solid, her sire is a quarter horse, and dam is a characteristic only appaloosa but goes back to 2 leopards WAAAAAAY back in her pedigree.. Neither the sire nor the dam had thrown any form of leopard foals, crossed them together and voila a LOUD black leopard filly..

Like I said earlier, *I* think that many times there are more than one pattern present (just like with the pintos etc) and the degree of expression is different and that with the multiple patterns, some are expressed more becoming "more dominant" and cover up the other patterns the horse is carrying, and I think that when you throw the varnish roaning gene in there, it aids in mimicking patterns as it changes the horse's pattern itself over time.. I think this is why it sometimes becomes very hard to distinctly identify one horse's pattern or another.. And of course not everyone will agree on what to call what pattern

and until more research is done and there's definitive proof, we'll just keep on guessing and being surprised!! lol

It sounds like the sire carried LP only and the Dam carried PATN1 only, which cannot be seen without LP. Wow! It is suprising that came down through all of the generations. What a wonderful surprise for them! This is a very good reason not to discount a solid with no characterisics foal from a leopard parent. They may be hiding that magic gene! I just love appys!

Shelia B.

 

[hairicane]

As others have said its almost impossible to know for sure how an adult appy looked at birth unless u saw it or photos of it as a new baby. Below is one of our homebred colts at 5 days old. He is a buckskin leopard and while he did have a little patch of buckskin on his face at birth I think its safe to say he was leopard at birth and still looks pretty much the same at 2 years old.

But I have several mares that look full leopard now but were born blanketed with spots on rump and unless u saw them as foals u would never know. And I guess it doesnt matter in the least as they all seem to produce about the same variety of colors. And any leopard, full or near, are not homozygous for appy color so u will always get some solid and some appy foals.